Murder-Suicide - the Case Against Simul-rappelling

I have used simul-rapping in two different cases. Being "cool"? Nope. Just being practical.

1) When mentoring "students" on their first few mock-leads, it is really nice to rap down together and inspect/discuss their gear placements and suggest alternatives. This is of course on single pitch. (Shock and horror! Simul-rap with a noob ??? ... yes, you can combine it with a biner block method)

2) There are a few routes on spires where the rope is "draped" across the spire and the two climbers rap on each side simultaneously (also single-pitch), thus avoiding the need for a rap anchor. This might be what NickGoldsmith is hinting at, but I have no idea what the Cerebus climb is. 

@Eric Craig: Looking for the history of simul-rap (in US), I'd suggest to start with Herb and Jan Conn at Custer State Park. This place has dozens of spires, to this day some without a rap anchor at the top. The Conn team were huge fans of not leaving anything behind and were famed for downclimbing most routes when done. I can easily imagine they would also employ simul-rap on short spires (case 2 above).

Eric Craigwrote:

@ Caleb, I am curious, are you a guide?

@rgold: good points!

I guided for roughly ten years but switched careers around 2015.  

I still simul rap sometimes and don’t find it notably more dangerous than other rappelling techniques.  I found the article to be closely akin to the spraylord junk claiming simul rapping is a hot thing that the celebrities are doing.  It’s all bluster.  Just go climbing people.  Quit telling other people how to do it.

*I love that Trailridge thinks I’m a stick in the mud.  Pot, meet Kettle.

Patrikwrote:

@Eric Craig: Looking for the history of simul-rap, I'd suggest to start with Herb and Jan Conn at Custer State Park. This place has dozens of spires, to this day some without a rap anchor at the top.

I am not really looking for history of simul rap or counter balance rappel. First time I ever did it was about 1977, off of a building we climbed. We rappelled off opposite sides, thus avoiding leaving any trace. No 3rd hands, no tether between us. Simul rappelling in this way doesn’t conform to modern safety practices, or fit the scenarios being discussed here.

I am wondering if anyone participating or folllowing this discussion has an idea of where this modern “safe” practice of simul rappelling originated in the US ????

I am reasonably sure that simul rapping has been done successfully with no equipment other than a rope. Possibly more than a century ago. That doesn’t apply to this discussion. But thanks for your answer. I didn’t know that about the Needles of SD.

Adam Flemingwrote:

Simul rapping is faster, but only if you don't care about closing your systems. Hell, it's arguably the fastest way to your body to the ground if that's literally your only goal. 

I was guiding a guy who really didn't need guiding the other day. He wanted to get more efficient overall. I showed him the beauty of pre-rigged raps and he loved it. Everyone has a role, second person can start rapping immediately once the first unweights, rope gets threaded while second person raps, only need one knot in the system, you can rig the other person's rappel while they finish pulling the rope, everyone gets a double check, one person could rap with an ABD if they want, ascending is easy since the rope is blocked, win-win-win-win-win. 

I'm constantly confused why simul-rapping is even considered. 

Climbers are conventional and conformist, and they follow fads and trends. 

I agree with Andy’s take. And because I want to share a story about myself, because I am vain, I will do it right here.

When I was a beginner I tried simul rapping off a horn in Joshua tree, with another beginner who was more beginner than me. We were not safe, we did it because it seemed cool. We did not have knots in the ends of our rope. I have not done it since because it has never been necessary.

Anecdotally, simul rapping was suggested to me a few times as a beginner "to save time", in situations where saving time wasn't important. Neither of us were experienced in simul rapping and I don't think the risks and tradeoffs were properly considered. So I think the technique has gotten more airtime and popularity than perhaps necessary.

I will happly admit I am totally wrong that people didn't think it was cool to SR.
This thread 100% confirms people indeed choose decent options based upon cool factor.
I wish I could say my flabbers were ghasted but the human condition is real.

Be safe out there yall. Practice your systems before you go tempt the dildo of consequence.

Tone Loc wrote:

even when the system is closed, it’s really only semi-closed b/c of the risk of an uncontrolled descent by both partners simultaneously triggered by one person making one mistake or one gear failure.

A mistake or "gear failure" will also cause an uncontrolled descent while doing a normal rappel, or while being lowered by your partner, or while doing a counterbalance rappel.  None of these systems are considered "semi closed" because of this.

Open vs. closed systems specifically refer to whether you can zip off the end of the rope.  Other failure modes do not make a closed system any less closed.

Personally, I consider it something akin to free soloing

This is a ridiculous comparison, and it diminishes the legitimacy of this discussion.

I don't do much simul-rappelling, and it's totally fine if other people aren't comfortable with it.  However, the pearl-clutching in this thread, and the hyperbole in OPs article, are laughable for something that can be reasonably safe, and well within the scope of other commonly accepted climbing practices.

I do find it humorous that a guy who found fame writing books and giving TED talks about sketchy solo big wall climbing is now lecturing us on how we shouldn't simul rappel.   

Kyle Tarrywrote:

I do find it humorous that a guy who found fame writing books and giving TED talks about sketchy solo big wall climbing is now lecturing us on how we shouldn't simul rappel.   

I think the term is engagement bait, since it's not quite rage bait, but he got the clicks and the comments, so mission accomplished.

Kyle Tarrywrote:

I do find it humorous that a guy who found fame writing books and giving TED talks about sketchy solo big wall climbing is now lecturing us on how we shouldn't simul rappel.   

AK is now writing for a new audience; the modern climber who  frets and clutches pearls and demands back-ups for their back-ups. 

rocknice2wrote:

We simul-rapped TWZ, 23 pitches x 30m in 75 minutes. It's definitely faster.

Benefits included 2 climbers untangling ropes and looking for belays. This is a huge time saver.

Both of us were long time partners and very intune with eachother. We had practice it for a long time at The Gunks and Dacks. We got very proficient at it and was our preferred method of descent. We preferred to use our GriGris on the way up, so there was that excuse.

I wouldn't do it with someone I just meet in a campground. 

Counterpoint to this on the TWZ page from Ryan Tilley:

In 2017 a friend and I climbed Time Wave. We used a safer simul rapping technique by clipping to each other and did not simul rap traversing pitches. On the way down we timed our rappels when simul rapping. During other multipitch climbs we timed our rappels when not simul rapping. We found that simul rapping was on about 35 seconds faster per pitch. In other words, we discovered that simul rapping saved very little time for a competent party (we work as rock guides) and the risk is significantly higher. As a result both of us have given-up simul rapping. It didn’t seem worth saving a few minutes overall on a long day. Just some food for thought given the many simul rapping accidents on routes in EPC, and the loss of some wonderful people in our community. Enjoy the rocks!

Don't know the details of his comparison but will assume good faith that Ryan knows to compare similar length rappels and is aware of other obvious confounders. I don't have a particularly strong opinion on this, but would mention that rappel gloves can really really speed up rappels without adding risk of simul rapping.

James Cwrote:

Counterpoint to this on the TWZ page from Ryan Tilley:

Don't know the details of his comparison but will assume good faith that Ryan knows to compare similar length rappels and is aware of other obvious confounders. I don't have a particularly strong opinion on this, but would mention that rappel gloves can really really speed up rappels without adding risk of simul rapping.

Yeah Ryan's assessment sounds about right for a tethered simul-rap. He saved the second rap @ 1meter/second that equals the 30 second savings.  We didn't simul the traverse either. 

Where I have found the greatest saving is untangling the spaghetti on the first person down rap. Most pitches require tangles to be removed. We didn't join ourselves together and that enabled us to work individually. This is where you absolutely need to trust that your partner doesn't unweight the rope. We used other time savers like joining the anchor bolts with an Alpine Draw and then each clipping to one bolt. Negligible amount of time was saved in mounting/removing the 2 GriGris at once.

As far as safety... yes it definitely has more risk and the trade off must be weighed by each team.  

People like Andy K are still kicking because they don’t make their objectives any more dangerous than they already are. They hang it waaaay out there, but generally speaking, do it in as conservative a manner as possible.

Simul-rappelling objectively makes an already dangerous practice more dangerous than it already is.  

If you really want to get two people down the line simultaneously consider tandem rappelling. A closed his system where the more experienced climber controls the descent of both.  But then you’re sort of nuts to butts and it’s not very cool and your friends might think you are lame.

I'm eager to return to this thread and understand and consider your writing on this topic, Andy,

but, as I actually have climbing friends who died in a very intentional murder-suicide-with-a-gun incident, 

and as most simul-rappelling fatal incidents are entirely accidental and unintentional,

a less click-bait/rage-baity article title would be appreciated.

"Me Myself and I" with a picture of an astronaut? 

Rad.

"Murder Suicide!" with a picture of a revolver? 

Dude. I hope the content is worth it.

Brent Kellywrote:

I'm eager to return to this thread and understand and consider your writing on this topic, Andy,

but, as I actually have climbing friends who died in a very intentional murder-suicide-with-a-gun incident, 

and as most simul-rappelling fatal incidents are entirely accidental and unintentional,

a less click-bait/rage-baity article title would be appreciated.

"Me Myself and I" with a picture of an astronaut? 

Rad.

"Murder Suicide!" with a picture of a revolver? 

Dude. I hope the content is worth it.

Not wishing to offend you further, as I'm sure you're a fine person with your heart in the right place, and I'm sorry you've experienced murder-suicide, by gun, but are you really suggesting all writers, all creative people, when considering a blank page or screen, should first imagine all the billions they might offend or upset before they begin? My job, as I see it, is to poke climbers in the aid of saving one or two of them from an early death. People are free to tell me I'm wrong, but then such people are not the people I'm writing for. It's for people who are unsure. Call it click bait if you want, but I'd call it effective. 

Andy Kirkpatrickwrote:

Not wishing to offend you further, as I'm sure you're a fine person with your heart in the right place, and I'm sorry you've experienced murder-suicide, by gun, but are you really suggesting all writers, all creative people, when considering a blank page or screen, should first imagine all the billions they might offend or upset before they begin? My job, as I see it, is to poke climbers in the aid of saving one or two of them from an early death. People are free to tell me I'm wrong, but then such people are not the people I'm writing for. It's for people who are unsure. Call it click bait if you want, but I'd call it effective. 

You should start a not for profit named, Andy Writes Explicitly For Unsure Climbers Knowledge. You can sell merch emblazoned with the acronym AWEFUCK and  have a team of simul-rappers tumbling down a cliff as your logo. 

Cheers!

Daniel Shivelywrote:

You should start a not for profit named, Andy Writes Explicitly For Unsure Climbers Knowledge. You can sell merch emblazoned with the acronym AWEFUCK and  have a team of simul-rappers tumbling down a cliff as your logo. 

Cheers!

Sir… this level of hilarity is reserved for Steve Hoffman. Absolutely a top 10 all time mp post   

Wow quite the sensational title. 

Simul-rapping is a tool in the quiver that has the occasional use. Comparing simul rapping to Russian Roulette is a joke lol. I'm looking forward to simul-rapping and having some noobs that read your article scream at me for attempted murder. 

With the title of the article in poor taste it sets the tone for me to add.  Don't pull a Gobright.. 

Andy Kirkpatrickwrote:

Not wishing to offend you further, as I'm sure you're a fine person with your heart in the right place, and I'm sorry you've experienced murder-suicide, by gun, but are you really suggesting all writers, all creative people, when considering a blank page or screen, should first imagine all the billions they might offend or upset before they begin? My job, as I see it, is to poke climbers in the aid of saving one or two of them from an early death. People are free to tell me I'm wrong, but then such people are not the people I'm writing for. It's for people who are unsure. Call it click bait if you want, but I'd call it effective. 

No, I'm not suggesting that.

I do think it's advisable for all writers and creative people to consider the impact of their output on the collective intended audience. I do think civilized people in general should be cognizant and careful of how their words and actions make waves.

When waves are being made, it's important to take note.

"Murder-suicide" makes waves.

When "murder-suicide" is used as a hook for something that is not literally "murder-suicide", it's click bait.

If "effective" makes click bait valid to you, we just have a difference of opinion on respectable marketing strategies.

Not telling you what to write or how to write it, just letting you know that my initial impulse as a member of your audience was revulsion, not captivated interest.

Maybe I'm just hyper-sensitive and over-anxious. Or not the intended audience. 

I do appreciate the general sentiment that climbers should be educated away from poorly considered risk/reward calculus.

Like I said, I hope it's worth it. Not trying to shit on your identity as a writer or climber. Hope you take the feedback in the friendly way it's intended.

---

It sucks that Brad died.

It's wasn't simul-rappelling that killed Brad.

It was the "Let's just hurry through this and cut corners and take shortcuts. It'll be fine. It's getting late and I'm ready to be done." dynamics that directly led to his death.

There's a bigger ubiquitous and timeless social problem in climbing of willful complacency and risky corner cutting than there is of reckless incompetence or lack of educational resources.