Murder-Suicide - the Case Against Simul-rappelling

@ Caleb, I am curious, are you a guide?

@rgold: good points!

We simul-rapped TWZ, 23 pitches x 30m in 75 minutes. It's definitely faster.

Benefits included 2 climbers untangling ropes and looking for belays. This is a huge time saver.

Both of us were long time partners and very intune with eachother. We had practice it for a long time at The Gunks and Dacks. We got very proficient at it and was our preferred method of descent. We preferred to use our GriGris on the way up, so there was that excuse.

I wouldn't do it with someone I just meet in a campground. 

Ben Zartmanwrote:

I find simulrapping a very good option in some, though far than most, cases.  Lots more social, to start with--the flow of conversation need not cease.  Faster, which is great when doing a long descent.  Safe enough with a competent partner.  I'd hate to do it to a space station though--better far to have a ledge to land on.  On familiar territory, with a strong, competent partner and the Deli calling, there's absolutely no reason not to.

But Andy--just because print media is mostly dead doesn't mean you should lower your writing standards.  Write less, but better, if you must.  My best work (I'm told, and I tend to agree), is not what the mags published, but what I put in my blog.  AI will never, ever, be as good as a good writer, because it's copying without creating, and creativity's infinite variety has much to express through the curious and well-trained mind.

I've spent 50 years doing stupid and dangerous shit; in fact, I think it's remarkable I'm still alive, but perhaps the reason I am alive is that I always tried to avoid unnecessary risks, and I'd view 'being social' or keeping the conversation going, while rappelling, as a risk worth taking, and frankly, would avoid climbers who didn't feel the same way. 

Perhaps I'm just paranoid, but over my lifetime as a climber, I've probably known about 50 people who've died in avoidable accidents (probably more, if I wanted to really think about it). I view climbing as fun, but some parts of it are like working with heavy machinery that can pull off an arm, or mangle you dead, in that sometimes, you really need to take it seriously, and respect why such machines have guards on them.  

Plus, others are watching, and so, when you're the experienced climber, it's down to you to set the example (like using a backup Prusik on rappel, wearing a helmet, placing pro even on easy ground, etc.). You can't be half-assed. For some reason, North American climbers have developed a bit of a too-cool-to-be-safe attitude I don't care for, something I don't see so much elsewhere (watching Ceder soloing with some influencer just turns me cold, but Yanks seem to love it, so what do I know). 

As for writing, I'm one of the few climbing writers left who make a living from just writing - although I'll probably move on to something easier sooner or later - and I suppose I've always taken a "good enough is" approach, that as long as I get over what I want to get over, that's good enough. Often, when I really put in the hours to make something perfect (Alpinists used to send out my piece on the Troll wall to new writers as an example of a near-perfect bit of writing), I'd either never finish it, but just go around and around, writing and re-writing. 80% good is easy to achieve, 90% is also possible, if you invest twice as much time, but beyond that, it takes so long, you need to be on $1 a word, and have an editor, just to get to 95%. And even then, 80% of people don't even read it to the end (people don't read anymore).

I guess I'm not an artist or a craftsman, I'm a tradesman. Forget the quality, feel the width. I'm not a climbing writing Bob Dylan, I'm more a Rick Wakeman : )

Best

Andy

World renowned climber who has written and published multiple books on descending mountains and safe mountaineering and in the real world is universally considered an expert on descending mountains: "Simul-Rappeling is extremely dangerous. Pretty much don't do it unless any other decision is less risky."
Mountain Project randos who routinely give extremely poor safety advice because "its safer to be faster": "You should simul-rappel with scared beginners. Why are you being so dramatic."

As a gumby climber, I wonder whose advice I should take?

Andy Kirkpatrickwrote:

I've spent 50 years doing stupid and dangerous shit; in fact, I think it's remarkable I'm still alive, but perhaps the reason I am alive is that I always tried to avoid unnecessary risks, and I'd view 'being social' or keeping the conversation going, while rappelling, as a risk worth taking, and frankly, would avoid climbers who didn't feel the same way. 

Perhaps I'm just paranoid, but over my lifetime as a climber, I've probably known about 50 people who've died in avoidable accidents (probably more, if I wanted to really think about it). I view climbing as fun, but some parts of it are like working with heavy machinery that can pull off an arm, or mangle you dead, in that sometimes, you really need to take it seriously, and respect why such machines have guards on them.  

Plus, others are watching, and so, when you're the experienced climber, it's down to you to set the example (like using a backup Prusik on rappel, wearing a helmet, placing pro even on easy ground, etc.). You can't be half-assed. For some reason, North American climbers have developed a bit of a too-cool-to-be-safe attitude I don't care for, something I don't see so much elsewhere (watching Ceder soloing with some influencer just turns me cold, but Yanks seem to love it, so what do I know). 

As for writing, I'm one of the few climbing writers left who make a living from just writing - although I'll probably move on to something easier sooner or later - and I suppose I've always taken a "good enough is" approach, that as long as I get over what I want to get over, that's good enough. Often, when I really put in the hours to make something perfect (Alpinists used to send out my piece on the Troll wall to new writers as an example of a near-perfect bit of writing), I'd either never finish it, but just go around and around, writing and re-writing. 80% good is easy to achieve, 90% is also possible, if you invest twice as much time, but beyond that, it takes so long, you need to be on $1 a word, and have an editor, just to get to 95%. And even then, 80% of people don't even read it to the end (people don't read anymore).

I guess I'm not an artist or a craftsman, I'm a tradesman. Forget the quality, feel the width. I'm not a climbing writing Bob Dylan, I'm more a Rick Wakeman : )

Best

Andy

Thanks for taking the time to reply.  I briefly made a living by writing when print media offered $1/word.  Good times, long gone--I feel ya.  I just hope you don't give up entirely--the world needs writers to keep things fresh.  And you're right--good enough is exactly that in some contexts.  "Good enough for who it's for" had to do sometimes, especially when some mischievous illiterate editor sent a piece back with all the soul hacked out of it.

I respect your opinion on rapping, but I disagree that the competent should dumb themselves down for the sake of the watching gumbies.  Climbing is not advanced by gumbies: it's advanced by people who take acceptable (to them) risks.  Nothing would ever have been freesoloed if we were setting examples for gumbies; no speed ascents would ever get done.  I'm not saying you have to rub it in gumbie's faces that you can accept more risk than them--you don't freesolo Nutcracker on a Saturday; that's just showing off for nothing--but you also don't not speed climb RNWF because you might have to pass a party or two.

Mr Zartman, I'm hurt! As Chief Gumby I will push the advancement of the sport. Mostly the Search and Rescue aspects of this sport by following the wonderful advice given in this forum    . Gonna need a rescue out in Zion next week for my simul-rappel if your available.

My very first simo rap was from the summit of Cerebus  mid 90s,  no other way down and you can't even see your partner... sometime in the late 2000s early teens I went through a phase where I thought simo rapping was cool. I got over it.  the clincher for me was getting dropped by a first live encounter with an internet friend on a snow gully coming down from an ice climb.  No consequences other than maybe this is not a good idea unless you are steady climbing partners and even then it doubles the risk if one person has a brain fart.  Reminds me of desert climbing back in the 80s when we used to unclip from the mank  anchor while our partner rapped just in case the anchor failed..... 

Eric Craigwrote:

@ Caleb, I am curious, are you a guide?

@rgold: good points!

@Caleb is definitely a stick in the mud

janky gumbywrote:

World renowned climber who has written and published multiple books on descending mountains and safe mountaineering and in the real world is universally considered an expert on descending mountains: "Simul-Rappeling is extremely dangerous. Pretty much don't do it unless any other decision is less risky."
Mountain Project randos who routinely give extremely poor safety advice because "its safer to be faster": "You should simul-rappel with scared beginners. Why are you being so dramatic."

As a gumby climber, I wonder whose advice I should take?

Astute observations.

The very few, rare, extra high risk rappelling situations I have experienced demanded slowing down and careful OBSERVATION to avoid mistakes/bad decisions.

Maybe you really aren’t such a Gumby.

janky gumbywrote:

World renowned climber who has written and published multiple books on descending mountains and safe mountaineering and in the real world is universally considered an expert on descending mountains: "Simul-Rappeling is extremely dangerous. Pretty much don't do it unless any other decision is less risky."
Mountain Project randos who routinely give extremely poor safety advice because "its safer to be faster": "You should simul-rappel with scared beginners. Why are you being so dramatic."

As a gumby climber, I wonder whose advice I should take?

I don’t think anyone here is advocating for simul-rapping as opposed to regular rappelling. No one’s saying you should simul rappel if you’re uncomfortable with it. Folks are just offering examples of when it has made sense (for them) in the past. And of course pushing back against Andy’s notion that simul rappelling is a death sentence. 

I 1000% mean no disrespect here but just because Andy is an accomplished climber and paid writer does not automatically mean every single one of his opinions is correct. I personally think it’s important to have conversations about these things and gain other perspectives so we can all be better informed about the decisions we make in the mountains.  

I’ve published some work myself - and getting pushback from others is just part of the game. Given his writing style I’m sure he has thick enough skin to take it!

Thanks for putting out the piece. 

janky gumbywrote:

World renowned climber who has written and published multiple books on descending mountains and safe mountaineering and in the real world is universally considered an expert on descending mountains: "Simul-Rappeling is extremely dangerous. Pretty much don't do it unless any other decision is less risky."
Mountain Project randos who routinely give extremely poor safety advice because "its safer to be faster": "You should simul-rappel with scared beginners. Why are you being so dramatic."

As a gumby climber, I wonder whose advice I should take?

Huh, interesting. Its his profession to write about climbing. Sure doesn't seem like Andy has done alot of simul rappelling for obvious reasons, some of which are outlined in that opinion piece.
He also failed provide any supporting data that simul rapping is somehow more dangerous than any other form of descent. Let alone posturing accidents where people rapped off their rope end is somehow because they were simul rapping, and not because the actual reason, there was no stopper knot.

My job is working in rope craft / rigging / teaching rope rescue / etc.
Some randos on here are proffesionals.
Sorry I don't have a book to sell you, but happy to teach you about simul rappelling and why I think it has great usefulness in the vertical space if you like. Or not.
YGD.

Is there anyone on here that can answer for me: where did the simul (counterbalance) rappel system, as practiced today (“3rd hand”s and tether between the rappelling climbers) originate in the USA?
History is a fundamental element of understanding. I am hoping someone here has an answer. I really want to know.

Adam Flemingwrote:

Simul rapping is faster…

But it’s not even AS fast as everyone thinks it is. If I rap first, I’m pulling the ends up, untying the knots, threading the next rappel, and adding one knot back in while I wait. Can’t do any of that on a simul rap. The act of rappelling down the rope is probably the LEAST time consuming part of the rappel anyway. Takes me 10 or 15 seconds usually? So you’re saving LESS than 10 or 15 seconds per rap. How often is that the difference between life and death due to a storm or whatever?

And I freaking can’t stand people simul rapping single pitch, I see this in J Tree all the time, usually newer climbers too, absolutely stupid for practically no gain. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

My very first simo rap was from the summit of Cerebus  mid 90s,  no other way down and you can't even see your partner...  

There is another way down off that exact route, you lower the first climber, then you counterbalance rap off of them. So not a true simul rap, and much safer.

Tony Danzawrote:

But it’s not even AS fast as everyone thinks it is. If I rap first, I’m pulling the ends up, untying the knots, threading the next rappel, and adding one knot back in while I wait. Can’t do any of that on a simul rap. The act of rappelling down the rope is probably the LEAST time consuming part of the rappel anyway. Takes me 10 or 15 seconds usually? So you’re saving LESS than 10 or 15 seconds per rap. How often is that the difference between life and death due to a storm or whatever?

In a SR situation its super efficient if you're dailed.
You both get to the next station, clip into anchor, undo devices, person 1 threads a tail through, ties the stopper, person 2 has already begun pulling rope down, person 1 takes over pulling til middle and clips device on their side, all while person 2 is pulling up the other tail to tie stopper and then gets device on rope.
Check each other and the system, go down again. So many things can happen at the same time with 2 people that are practiced. Normaly you have to wait for the second to get down til you can pull rope and do the other necesarry shenanigans.

And I freaking can’t stand people simul rapping single pitch, I see this in J Tree all the time, usually newer climbers too, absolutely stupid for practically no gain. 

This is incredible. lol.

As someone who doesn't simul rappel and is interested in the proposition of the article, I couldn't find one tangible argument to why simul rappels could be more dangerous than regular rappels in the article or the replies to this post.

Seems like most experienced climbers here agree that it's definitely more dangerous, but I don't see why? Does anyone have an actual argument?

Rappeling in itself is dangerous, obviously. So, ignoring any arguments about speed, and assuming that everything is done "correctly" in both cases (knots to the end of the ropes, third hands, climbers clipped together for simul rappels), how is simul rappeling more dangerous than regular rappels?

The only thing that comes to mind is 4x more force to the anchors (and 2x the consequences in case of accidents). The rest seems like fearmongering about errors that people do while rappeling normally all the time.

Mr Rogerswrote:

In a SR situation its super efficient if you're dailed.
You both get to the next station, clip into anchor, undo devices, person 1 threads a tail through, ties the stopper, person 2 has already begun pulling rope down, person 1 takes over pulling til middle and clips device on their side, all while person 2 is pulling up the other tail to tie stopper and then gets device on rope.
Check each other and the system, go down again. So many things can happen at the same time with 2 people that are practiced. Normaly you have to wait for the second to get down til you can pull rope and do the other necesarry shenanigans.

This is incredible. lol.

I’ll admit it’s faster, I’m just not sold on how much faster. It would be really neat to do some sort of controlled tests, remove as many variables as possible, and see how much time is actually saved per rap. 

Tony Danzawrote:

And I freaking can’t stand people simul rapping single pitch, I see this in J Tree all the time, usually newer climbers too, absolutely stupid for practically no gain. 

So…. Perhaps another unpopular opinion on this thread… I also see it semi- often, and regularly simul rap myself, as do my partners. So, anecdotally at least, it seems to really be not quite as dangerous as some folks are making it out to be.

If people are out there simul rapping day in and day out, and it’s really that much more dangerous than rappelling or lowering, where’s the data to support that?

Could there be an argument that the extra-attentiveness that goes on with simul-rapping (because of its perceived danger and the inherent double checks) actually makes it… safer?

(To be clear I’m not advocating it being safer, just a thought experiment). 

@Tommy-Xavier:

Good questions Tommy. There isn’t necessarily anything more risky about simul rapping. It is slightly more complicated than rapping singly, and more things are happening simultaneously. These could increase the risk of something important being missed. When more is happening in a shorter period of time, this potentially compromises the ability to accurately observe the whole situation. In multiple ways. Nuances such as I suggest here, well, people on this forum find discussing them to be challenging.

So there is no question that two experienced and skilled climbers can make better time simul rapping with little or no compromise to safety. Or a skilled guide with an inexperienced guest. Rarely will this make any real difference. It’s mostly a solution looking for a problem. And probably mostly practiced because of the “cool” factor.

Really, it’s just an individual choice, and that’s fine.

My opinion is that people should just go climbing, building on fundamental skills, and developing a deep understanding of situational awareness. Those things, especially the second one, take time. There are no shortcuts or work arounds.

Anyone, when and how did the American community become aware of simul rapping techniques? Or where was it first published in a book or manual?

Tony.  It's been 30 years since I was on top of Cerebus.  I don't recall any decent anchor up there that I would want to lower someone from while I squeezed the shit out of the summit like a bareback bronc rider.