You can now flag a discriminatory name

I climb for fun. Anyone?

It seems the general consensus of the people against the flagging system is "There is no way it will be perfect" and you are right, it won't be perfect.

But, it doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs to be better.

I think a "Show previous name" button on the page would be a good way to "keep the history" of a route, It could even have a spot for something like name changed by FA, or name change by Local Climbing Coalition.

Robert Rowsamwrote:

But race is a choice. It's a story many of us choose to believe in. Race does not exist, it is a social construct. The color of a person's skin should be as relevant as their hair or eye color to society. Racism only exists because we all still choose to elevate the importance of skin tone for some reason.

You are confusing cause and effect. Racism doesn't exist because of race; race exists because of racism.

As long as there are racists targeting people because of the color of their skin, the color of people's skin is important because we need to know who to protect. You can't get rid of racism by just pretending that race doesn't matter, because racists will just continue to make it matter.

M Spraguewrote:

MP was owned by REI then and appears to have been having employee issues (No one running the show?) so not a lot got done. For a while Admins had a hard time even having anybody authoritative to deal with when they had questions or problems to deal with. It has only recently back under Nicks ownership, 

I understand there was change of management, but the person who developed the proposal in Nov 2019 spoke directly to Nick, and at the time his response was "We are not ready for this, follow up in 4-6 weeks." All I am really trying to get at is that there are people who worked hard on this and are not going to get credit where credit is due. I am all for this feature and am happy to see it in place, but stealing it from a developer after rejecting their proposal months ago is pretty messed up. 

PatMaswrote: I think a "Show previous name" button on the page would be a good way to "keep the history" of a route, It could even have a spot for something like name changed by FA, or name change by Local Climbing Coalition.

This seems like a pretty good idea to incorporate with the new flagging system. Hides the offensive/racist original name for the majority of the community, but is there for people who really feel the need to go by the original names.

Racist names have no place in climbing. Full stop. I support dealing with this. However the culture of seeking out offense is real too. And we can see this already in some of the names being flagged

Donkey Show Left? Who’s offended? Donkeys? People into bestiality? Men with a penis smaller than the donkey’s? Donkey show’s FA?

If a FA wants to change the name then awesome. But the question is what if they don’t (and thus MP or the community has to make a decision)

Again if the routes are so offensive that they need to be dealt with then they should be REMOVED from the database, or REMOVED from the planet aka CHOPPED.

Hopefully this will also help limit the slippery slope, as the community has to balance the harm done by a route name versus, the benefit of the route being there and the benefit of knowing about it MP.

FA’s do a ton of work to put these up, and part of the reward is naming the route, and they are inextricably linked. I know that if MP changed a route name of a route of mine, and I did not agree, I would strongly ask them to remove it from DB versus accepting a name change that I did not accede to. If refused I would recycle the hangers onto something new.

Taking a stand is just virtue signaling if you are unwilling to pay the price, or make a real sacrifice to achieve your goals.

​Finally, without ugliness there is no beauty.
Right and wrong cannot exist if there is no choice.

Dave K wrote:

Right, start telling your friends and coworkers that you are choosing to be black. Let us know how it went.

That's completely missing the point. I wouldn't choose to identify as Black. The point would be to choose not to identify at all, because race is imaginary and racism is stupid. 

Edit to add: To illustrate my point, how exactly do you define "Black". Do you have some instrument that can tell you? Do you follow the "one drop rule"? That all seems pretty racist to me.

SinRopa wrote:

When is the MP-sponsored guidebook burning?

#MPFAHRENHEIT451

So who is to ultimately to decided if a route name IS offensive? Site Landlord? Is there a vote to kick the route name off the island? How does it work @nick?

I think this is good, and due.  There are a number of route names that are incredibly crass, vulgar, discriminatory, and do not foster an environment of inclusivity.  (I find it ironic that the climbing "community," which is predominantly liberal, seems to be the producer of such awful names.)

My only request is that "What's Good for the Goose is Good for the Gander."  Let's be consistent.  A deliberate offense against a person is still an offense, regardless of the origin of the words or the destination of the insult.  While we as Americans do have our First Amendment rights, we should also abide by the Golden Rule.  For many people, this is a difficult line to straddle.

May I suggest the following route names be considered as offensive:
dick-cheese-ball-cheney
bush-bullshit
political-prisioner
go-drown-in-a-lake-of-diet-coke-fucker
dya-pee-in-her-butt
republicans-on-crack
asshat-republicans
jesus-slaves
freaking-jesus
the-sins-of-jesus
valley-christians
timeless-christian-values
christian-girls-poop-too
porn-again-christian
religion-poisons-everything
church-nazi
69
son-of-bitchy-virgin
easy-virgin
the-jane-fonda-workout-for-pregnant-women

Yes, that's a curated list to demonstrate a point.  The point isn't to say "we're screwed for changing names!" No, it's the contrary.  It's if we're going to do this, we should do it across the board.

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

You can choose what gender but not what race? 

Nope. People don't choose their gender, either.

Though a lot of the flags are ridiculously extreme, ignorant or trolls (Black Nepalese refers to a type of black colored hash, nothing to do with skin color folks), I am surprised how many repulsive route names there are on the list. Luckily in the areas I help administer in New England I haven't come across more than a few egregious ones, so the list is a bit of an eye opener. I did have a few homophobic names come up for new routes, but when I wrote to the OP asking if that was the best they could do, they changed them.

In dealing with these issues, it is the extremism that is turning some people off, not that they are defending the worst examples, and then when somebody points out where some are going overboard and then gets painted as some kind of red hat wearing racist goon and told you can't have an opinion because you are a white male, well that rightly pisses people off, communication brakes down .

One issue with the list accuracy is that routes are still on it that have already been changed, so that accounts for some of the ridiculous looking flags. If people would calm down and not be so hair triggerish with their outrage (everybody), we would probably be able to take care of the worst cases more quickly.

Bob Dwrote: Way to go Nick, great to see you addressing this issue. The same old drama queens but just more of them on MP now.  

Lol, the irony.

SinRopa wrote:Same thing with the "Negress Wall" getting discussed on another thread.  It was evidently named with no ill-intent, so while it undoubtedly offends some, does that mean it's inherently offensive?  Should the famous sculpture of the same name be similarly renamed?  What about the United Negro College Fund?  Again, context matters.

I’ve climbed at Negress Wall. Negress Wall is no United Negro College Fund, sir.

There is that back story, but, I’m sorry, I don’t think that “gotcha!” of a name is justified given that 99% of people aren’t going to know it and some of the route names are straight up derogatory. Look them up, maybe you can find some cool back stories.

Also, it’s a good laugh you defended “Colonel Lynch” who was literally going after a big black man but you had a major problem with “Colonel Mustard”. Not a Clue fan, I presume. In general, I find your points trivial. But that’s a private problem, I don’t believe in corporal punishment. Lieutenant.

Let’s just rename everything

Unknown 1,
Unknown 2,
Unknown 3,
.....
Unknown 545,771
Unknown 545,772

There. Will that make everyone happy? Then no one can ever be offended. Problem solved. You can’t please everyone. People will never agree what’s offensive, what’s not. This argument will go on indefinitely. If the FA doesn’t want to change the name just remove it - done. It’s that’s simple. Mnt Proj or local climbing coalitions have no right to just decide what a new name should be. If you don’t like it - don’t publish it.  

djkyote wrote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donkey_show

cant see the racist stereotype and misogyny?

must be nice.

May just be my work computer but that link is coming back blank.

PatMaswrote: May just be my work computer but that link is coming back blank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=Donkey+show%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B%E2%80%8B&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=1&ns0=1

T Legowrote: Which of these do you think is worse to say:

Jesus

or

...well, my post would get removed if I typed it.

*insert John Mulaney quote, something something*

It would depend on what's in your heart when you say it and also how would your statement effect someone else.

What about "Jesus Fried Chicken"? Makes you wonder if Jesus had a sense of humor in RL and made puns and stuff.

> Jesus' Book of Jokes

Keith Wwrote:

I understand there was change of management, but the person who developed the proposal in Nov 2019 spoke directly to Nick, and at the time his response was "We are not ready for this, follow up in 4-6 weeks." All I am really trying to get at is that there are people who worked hard on this and are not going to get credit where credit is due. I am all for this feature and am happy to see it in place, but stealing it from a developer after rejecting their proposal months ago is pretty messed up. 

How does one "steal" a suggestion given to them regarding a potential feature on their own web site?

How does one "work hard" on nagging someone about route names?

How does one complain about a system that doesn't conform to their particular standards, and then when given exactly what they want, they complain about how it wasn't fast enough?