New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #42

Strange that Jan’s route keeps coming up, I thought it had sort of been laid to rest until this Brandon guy recently lead it and said it was a memory to cherish.

I really have no skin in this game, except Alex‘s posts allign with my thoughts so much. But I really wanted to climb it. And that made me curious. I’m still curious. So tomorrow I will hike back and see what I’m missing.

As I recall, it’s a 60 foot climb from a ledge to the top. That ledge is above a good 20 foot chasm. So I would guess from ground to top is more like 80 feet of sheer wall with no holds.  I thought there was only one bolt toward the top but it sounds like there may be at least one more. Regardless, if you fell at any point, you would be falling 20to 60 feet, maybe more. That’s a straight down hard fall onto rock and I say death. 

So it’s basically not climbable for anyone except this Brandon dude.   And me on top rope.

This topic which is so close to so many hearts is something I apparently don’t get at all. The thrill and the victory of climbing a route like this basically free solo. Brandon said it would completely ruin it if there were a few more bolts.  

Which brought me to the thought of Alex Honnold and his free solo climb, are there bolts on Freerider? If there are, and he climbed over or around,  would that make his climb any less as astonishing? Or reward(I have no idea what’s on that 3000 feet, I’m just guessing.)

I do want to say that in no way am I still hammering on this particular route. I’m really appreciative that these routes exist, particularly chalk up another one to the right and so much fun.

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Jan, thank you for your advice on the aquarium. I do understand this is quite a project. It seems a “protein skimmer” is necessary, especially for an octopus, and when I looked inside one in a tank, totally grossed me out. That could be a dealbreaker. Also the little octopus needs water at around 68°. So it wouldn’t be a heater but apparently a water chiller at about 700 bucks.

Just slowly gathering information here.  :-)

to those proclaiming to need more safe sport routes:
In 1986 there were very roughly perhaps 100-200 sport routes Total in all of California and Nevada and Oregon and Washington.
Today going by the count on MP, there are 11845 in CA and 2937 in NV and 2774 in OR and 4992 in WA.
https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105708959/california

Daniel Shively wrote:

Daniel, was this Mt. Locke that you posted on April 2?
I think Hurd Pk from your post today?
Good storm coming soon!

Hi Lori, yes there are bolts on Freerider. Freerider is a variation of the Salathe Wall that avoids the Salathe roof and headwall. The Salathe Wall was originally climbed using around 13 bolts. It was a bold and visionary accomplishment. Many bolts have been added over the years (mostly at belays). There are now at least 50 bolts on the route. The bolted belay anchors are useful for top down missions used by Honnold and many others to rehearse crux sections. No, the bolts did not diminish Honnold’s solo in any meaningful way. 

Speaking from experience, soloing and leading a runout climb are quite different experiences. When soloing, if a move is made that is not down climbable, it’s summit or plummet. Soloing is often total commitment. 

Leading R or X rated climbs often affords the luxury of clipping a bolt to rest or lower off. A good belayer can also provide a running belay and take up slack to shorten big falls. There is still much commitment, but at a (usually) lower level than soloing. Some claim that if retrobolts are placed, a climber seeking the original experience can simply skip the additional bolts. This is a false claim because having bolts close at hand eliminates the commitment, and commitment is what this style of climbing is about. 

At the root of this discussion is (I think) the reality that some climbers love the feeling of high or total commitment when choosing climbs (styles). The feeling of commitment is what keeps me excited and motivates my choices of climbs. I love much about climbing, but when I’m honest with myself, it’s mostly just practice for big days with loads of commitment. As I wrote earlier, there are so many climbs of different styles, the desire to retro-bolt existing climbs seems shortsighted. 

Not all climbs are for all climbers. 

Fun Convo!

tom donnelly wrote:

Daniel, was this Mt. Locke that you posted on April 2?
I think Hurd Pk from your post today?
Good storm coming soon!

Hi Tom, that photo is around 20 years old and I’m not totally sure where I was. I kind of think it may be around Morgan Pass (Rock Creek). Maybe a traverse towards Morgan South or Little Lakes Peak. That does kind of look like Emerson in the background though. Lol

Yes, that’s Hurd behind Etienne. 

So far, the point forecast is showing the possibility for 24”+ near the Sierra Crest. The snow is a welcome blessing. 

Cheers!

Ps. Here’s a photo of Emerson from near the summit of Checkered Demon. After looking at this, I now think that the photo in question is probably near Morgan Pass. The peak in the background may be Rosey Finch. 

Lori wrote about the routes on the west side of Little Hunk:
"A route I am most excited about is Torturers Apprentice. It’s on a beautiful massive wall that I think of as the surface of the moon. Charles Cole was in on this one. Charles was also involved on the route next to it, Gun Shy. It’s astonishing the lack of bolting on the first half of the route. Way to my right on this same wall is Randy’s The Compassion of the Elephants. Bob did the FA on Groundhogs Day and several others. So that entire wall was built out by incredible climbers. But I’ve never seen a soul there."

I think I've only done one route there, long ago. I'd say it's a combination of several factors: mostly Hard and Runout routes, quite sunny, and many guidbooks don't describe all the routes well or are missing some, or given 1 star, so it makes it confusing. None are in Todd's sport book and none are in Bob's very select Best Climbs book.
And, the most obvious line, the slanting dike of Trespassers, is runout by accident.  mountainproject.com/route/1…
Another thing I have found in recent years in JTree is that some routes, despite the normally good friction, have become more slippery right at the cruxes.

Lori Milas wrote:

 

So, speaking of daydreaming... my interest in octopuses was only that, an interest (I thought).  Then I thought, hmmm, I wonder if it's possible to have an octopus for a pet.  Thinking about the cruelty of pulling such an intelligent and sensitive animal out of the ocean, no.  But then, thinking further, what about those that have already been captured, sitting in buckets in Asian grocery stores... or that have been already caught and need adoption?  

Well, many weeks/hours of research later... maybe this could be a reality. (Can't climb with Kris, but could own an octopus   ).  It's a big deal... setting up an aquarium, not only lots of cash, but it has to 'mature' for 3 months, running fully, before you can add your octopus to the water.  I understand they are little escape artists, so lots of protections there.  

And here's the heartache, even before it begins:  they only live for about a year.  Maybe a little longer, but you don't know how old they are when you get them.  It's not easy to 'age' an octopus.  So I would know going in that I will have bonded with this creature, grown to love him/her, and will lose him quickly. I'm already sad. 

  

Lori, it seems like you have your heart set on this, but, wherever you get your octopus from, you are still supporting the removal of that critter from the wild. 

As I said, I had freshwater aquariums, and it was a fun hobby. But, I chose to only stock fish that were captive bred, not wild caught. And, bred some myself. These were essentially domesticated fish, selected for various traits, and had departed considerably from their wild ancestors. Pets. 

Maybe what you really should set your sites on, is learning to dive, and visiting the octopuses garden in person? In the shade? Under the sea?

Oh dear. Now I'm stuck. 

Helen

Ward Smith wrote:

I prefer to be called "Lord Ward, Master of the Known Universe" but it hasn't gotten too much traction except from my daughter in jest....

Ha! That reminds me of when a guidance counselor called me in in high school and asked me what I wanted to be. I said " An emperor"  (I had been reading a bunch of books about Napoleon) He had absolutely no comeback. Being a teen ager, I was thinking " Yeah, you moron,  you are going to guide me? The conversation quickly faded out and he never called me back, no advice on how to become one or prepping for college. It turns out I could have really used a good counselor.

M Sprague wrote:

Ha! That reminds me of when a guidance counselor called me in in high school and asked me what I wanted to be. I said " An emperor"  (I had been reading a bunch of books about Napoleon) He had absolutely no comeback. Being a teen ager, I was thinking " Yeah, you moron,  you are going to guide me? The conversation quickly faded out and he never called me back, no advice on how to become one or prepping for college. It turns out I could have really used a good counselor.

Presumably unaware of your recent reading matter, one wonders whether he might have thought that your ambition was to become a particular variety of penguin. Would certainly have been difficult to advise upon!

Alex Smith wrote:

and this is why a 5.9 2 hours from LA hasn't seen a documented ascent in 30 years.

That’s a ridiculous assumption. WTF is a “documented ascent” on any route in Joshua Tree?!? A tick on the Proj? Lots and lots of people climb and don’t use ticks on MP.

that's fine though, the kids in the gyms are warming up on your gym projects 

Then a crappy little 5.9 put up decades ago by a guy with no gym training and vastly inferior shoes isn’t even something they’d ever bother with in the first place. 

Old lady H wrote:

Lori, it seems like you have your heart set on this, but, wherever you get your octopus from, you are still supporting the removal of that critter from the wild. 

As I said, I had freshwater aquariums, and it was a fun hobby. But, I chose to only stock fish that were captive bred, not wild caught. And, bred some myself. These were essentially domesticated fish, selected for various traits, and had departed considerably from their wild ancestors. Pets. 

Maybe what you really should set your sites on, is learning to dive, and visiting the octopuses garden in person? In the shade? Under the sea?

Oh dear. Now I'm stuck. 

Helen

The only day of my diving career was a coral reef in S Thailand and the highlight of the day was when my guide pointed out an octopus about 3' away that was so unbelievably camouflaged I never would have noticed it. Watching the octopus watch me and then seeing it casually move along after it deemed us as no threat was a memorable experience. Almost brushing a scorpion fish with my clumsy hand was another memory of the day, my dive instructor luckily saw it and pulled me back! 

If any creature on earth came from another planet it is the octopus,  the intelligence of them is literally out of this world.

Been trying to buy new rock shoes. I have been in Scarpa force for decades.  size 45. The two pairs I have been using the most have many resoles on them and are getting tired.  the Quantic was on sale so I gave that a try. Its only slightly aggressive looking compared to other curved shoes out there. super painful and small so I tried it again in 45.5. still too small.  Just processed that return. Now I am not confident that If I find a Force in 45 or 45.5 that it will not be too small. no local climbing shops. Wondering if they changed their sizing or if  it was simply the different model? 

I wore the Force for years and finally found their replacement in the Scarpa Origin, it's sold as an entry level shoe(whatever the hell that means) and is a flat and stiff shoe. Cheap too. It's my comfy all around shoe that really supports my big toe on small crystals. 

And to add on sizing,  I typically wore a 43.5 to 44 for years and find all of my newer shoes are 45 to 47 now. I think I dealt with breaking in pain better BITD, that or sizing has changed 

hasn't seen a documented ascent in 30 years.

You type as if that were a problem, lol. 

Documented ascent of a 5.9 hahahahahahah! 

We have a tendency to miss subtlety in text. The guy has his own perspective. That’s ok. Keeps the conversation interesting. 

Funny that Good to the Last Drop causes so much consternation.  For the record, there are 2 bolts on the bottom of the climb, then a perfect size 7 hex that is bomb proof, then about a 20 foot runout to the last bolt.  If someone did want to add a bolt, it had damn well better be done ground up, on stance, on lead.  If you think you would have wanted to stop and put more bolts in doing a proper job, more power to you, now go do it in 70s climbing shoes.  Sometimes a route determines how it is protected, not the climbers.

Jan Mc wrote:

...Sometimes a route determines how it is protected, not the climbers.

Word.

I remember doing that route with you. We'd done a couple routes already when you suggested we do it. I guess it was my turn to lead. Anyway, at the base you handed me a #7 hex. "Here, you might want this."

It is, truly, a perfect placement.

tom donnelly wrote:

Daniel, was this Mt. Locke that you posted on April 2?
I think Hurd Pk from your post today?
Good storm coming soon!

Sure looks like Mt Locke to me!  Wahoo Gully prominent front and center, right? Brother Jim and I climbed it one winter/spring day LONG ago, meaning to ski it back down. A bitter, strong, freezing wind followed us up to the top. The Wahoo was so frozen by the time we got up that we chose to go back down the low angle south facing aspect that is partially visible on the left side of the summit. Good day, good memories...

(Can't seem to get Dan's photo from April 2 to come along with the text)

Jan Mc wrote:

Funny that Good to the Last Drop causes so much consternation.  

Honestly I have not understood why people have gotten so worked up about this, except maybe that they are extrapolating to the broader issue of "add bolts or don't add bolts".  I am firmly in the don't add bolts unless you have permission camp because:

1. There are thousands and thousands of routes to choose from.  If something is too scary for you, choose another route.  I've never done the last pitch of Super Chicken, for example, and I am perfectly OK with Rick A deciding not to change the bolting on it after a long debate about it on Supertopo. Even though I was in the camp of, "well if you did add 2 bolts to the pitch, it would probably get done more". But it's perfectly OK that it still only gets done by the climber that can do it.

2. Not only is "not every route meant for every climber", but "not every 5.9 route is meant for every 5.9 climber". When I was a better climber I did probably hundreds of 5.9 R routes.  Those routes were meant for me, and the climber I was then.  I enjoy having to really pay attention, while at the same time feeling quite comfortable in knowing there is no reason that I should fall (except if I don't pay attention). I still do a lot of routes with mandatory runouts, at the level that is appropriate for me NOW, and I still really enjoy that aspect of climbing.  In fact, one of the MOST FUN aspects of gear routes, routes that you can put a piece anywhere you want, is the game of how often you want to place gear. Just the other day, I did a gorgeous 5.8 hand crack and it was so secure and so in my comfort zone that a couple of times, I had to force myself to stop and put in a piece after 30 feet, just because I know that it's the sensible and responsible thing to do.

The whole "add a bolt, people can skip it if they want to" argument is ridiculous.  It completely changes the nature of the challenge. And if a challenge isn't one of the biggest attractive factors in climbing, in why some people climb at all, then why are so many people so freakin' obsessed with the grade they climb, and how hard the climb is. "Project" is just another word for a challenge. It's great that there are a lot of sport routes for people to climb to challenge themselves safely on things they cannot comfortably onsight. But that's only one aspect available to climbers. Some climbers love the physical aspect, some love the technical aspect, some love the mental aspect.  These are all just flavors of challenges for different people. Some climbers love projects, others have no interest in them. Would any one climb there if all the routes in Joshua Tree were 5.7 sport bolted slabs? Variety is the spice of climbing, people.  Seems pretty obvious.

Wow, what a treat. I cringe when I mention a topic that has so much disagreement but the conversation is so enlightening.  The only reason (as far as I know) that Good To The Last Drop has been hashed over so much is because when I was trying to work through my list of all the routes that included David Houser as an FA, this one was on that list.  And I couldn't get it done.  No one would take the risk.  Finally someone did, I got to top rope it, but I kept thinking 'what's the big deal'?  But I kept hearing "If only it had one more bolt...".  

So that was my introduction to the issue.  

I argued (again) with a friend who is a really good climber here, for whom this is a big issue.  He has a deep reverence for 'old times'.  He's a fan of Bachar, of Mike Waugh, Cosgrove... all the early gang.  He wants to climb routes exactly as intended, ground up, just the way they were initially climbed.  He believes anything else is self-serving.  

that sentiment dovetails with my pondering of 'where are the climbers' here in Joshua Tree?  I thought this place was packed with climbers before!  Perhaps they are just not interested in doing things the way they were done bitd.  I know several climbers who aren't interested in risking their lives for a climb...they head to sport climbing areas.  Is there a climber alive today who WANTS danger? (I'm sure there are still a few)..  They want to work their route, get a great workout, and get home safely.  

So I came in today to have another look at Jan's route.  No one was climbing Intersection Rock, no one was on any part of Old Woman... the parking lot was nearly empty. It's QUIET.  Kind of a difficult scramble this time for me, having to occasionally bend my knee. But there it was, Good To The Last Drop, proud and .... empty.  

While there I sat at the base of Chalk Up Another One and fondly remembered that climb with Bob... another Houser route that I enjoyed so much.  And hard for me.  It was a big day, even without the threat of death.  :-)

So, you can leave everything exactly as it was 50 years ago... as a monument to what was.  Very few people are going to climb it.

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Daniel, thank you for your detailed post.  You filled in some blanks.  

Tom... as for the routes on Little Hunk... this is an area I feel possessive of.  It's ok with me that no one goes there... but I always wonder why not?  IT's my idea of incredible climbing, and for slab lovers it's a feast.  Plus, it's a little different trees, flora, rock.. feels very hidden.  

---

Helen, This IS a dilemma I'm going to work through.  We passed a law here in CA and Washington prohibiting octopus farming--I'm a part of that.  This fellow got his octopus from a live fish market, which we have here as well. So that's a possible source and a way from preventing a little one from being someone's dinner. There are hobbyists who raise octopuses and breed them.  Don't know where I fit quite yet.

Tony told me yesterday he's buying another new car.  This will be his 4th car since we met (8 years ago). ("What? What's wrong with this car?")  He's happier and more lit up than I've seen him in awhile.

Some people need a new car to get excited about life.  Some people need a new bowling ball. Some people need a new octopus?    

Fish market.