Dogs that bite

J E wrote:

Why was your kid near a stranger’s dog that was tied on a lead? Sounds like the only additional step the owner could have taken is to muzzle the dog (probably a good idea for any crag dog).

that is, of course, your argument is that the dogs should be left at home. My response would be, then the kids should be left at home too. 

Have you been to Bath rock???

This isn't a "crag" in the usual sense of how we imagine that to be. It's an extremely popular spot that's seconds from a parking lot.

The climbing is right next to the rock. The main, and most popular, area is the rollercoaster wall, with a bunch of routes in close proximity. The staging area is between the wall itself, and a wood rail fence. Only maybe 10' or so from the rock. It's usually quite full of people, packs, and yes, one to three dogs tied up to the fence. 

The pups are usually chill. Usually. 

The other sides of Bath rock are a bit more open (no fence) but the staging is still very tight to the rock.

At least the dog was leashed. There's plenty at COR whom persist in thinking the "all dogs must be leashed at all times" somehow doesn't include their pooch. Sad truth is that, if we, as climbers, can't police each other? The simple policy change is no dogs. Period. No park anywhere is exactly overstaffed or overfunded, and rangers wasting vast amounts of time telling people to get their dog leashed?

That's just stupid selfish, for climbers (and any others, of course) to do that. 

The other thing rangers have to do over and over and over?

Ticket idiots who park where they shouldn't, usually on dry grass, and patrol campsites for untended fires.

I'd far rather have them lessening the wildfire risk, then being stuck with nagging on the leash thing. 

Best, Helen

The perfect crag doesn’t ex…….. 

Bruno Schull wrote:

I love chocolate cake!  If I find a cake lying around at the crag, I'm going to eat it!  

Touch my crag cake and I’ll punt you further than your dog

J E wrote:

The statistics disagree when it comes to ‘PiBbLeS’

Idk about that it sure seems that a domesticated animal typically will rely on their human for training, behavior, etc. Do you have a link to said statistics? 

Pitbull owners are delusional. That moron Caesar Milan is a poetic example. He made a million dollars selling the idea that you can "alpha" (bully) a dog into good behavior to room temp IQ well-wishers who are guilted by pictures of dogs in cages and overwhelmed with a savior complex, by professing pitbulls can't be judged by their 150+ years of objectively awful selective breeding, amplifying the farse that they make good pets... only to have his shitbull famously and brutally kill two pets left in his possession (one belonging to the entertainer queen latifah, lol) and severely mauling a woman who was a gymnast... before her ankle was irreparably torn apart.

https://people.com/crime/cesar-millan-pit-bull-allegedly-killed-queen-latifah-dog-bit-gymnast-report/

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

Idk about that it sure seems that a domesticated animal typically will rely on their human for training, behavior, etc. Do you have a link to said statistics? 

dogsbite.org

N Kalli wrote:

dogsbite.org

I agree Cesar Milan is jackass but what does this link have to do with my post? I asked for statistics and you linked an entire .org‘s website….

Bruno Schull wrote:

Hi Grug Grug!   Hi Jorden!

@ Jordan...if you've had 6 bad dog encounters in 5 years you're doing something wrong.  Plain and simple.  

Here is the ignorance in action. Keep that head in a hole Bruno, and avoid talking about the problem.  

Jordan Wilson wrote:

Here is the ignorance in action. Keep that head in a hole Bruno, and avoid talking about the problem.  

Not really.  Unless you're working with violent or nervous dogs on a daily basis it's probably you.  I work with such dogs every couple of weeks at animal shelters and i don't have as many 'violent' dog experiences as you.  

See what i mean Kenny? On & on it goes, like a hamster wheel. Dog haters v dog lovers. Personally, I don't give a fuck but what I'm (& hopefully everyone) 100% sure of is that it sucks getting bit by a dog.

Sue the lady & lock the thread. Peace out.

Jeremy S wrote:

Chocolate crag cake is superior in all ways.

Except this. Brilliant addition to the discussion. Wish I could've given more than 1 thumbs up for this post. 

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

Idk about that it sure seems that a domesticated animal typically will rely on their human for training, behavior, etc. Do you have a link to said statistics? 

Tell me where my friends pointer picked up the behavior of pointing, despite never being trained? Why do shepherds nip and ankles and try to herd children, despite having never stepped paw on a farm let alone seen a farm animal?

there are behaviors and temperaments tied closely to a dogs genetics. Denying that is just willful ignorance

https://coloradoinjurylaw.com/blog/dog-bite-statistics/

https://www.dogsbite.org/dog-bite-statistics-quick-statistics.php

@lady h 

No I haven’t been to bath rock, thanks for the context. Such close quarters where a dog can’t help but have close exposure to strangers warrants a muzzle always

J E wrote:

No I haven’t been to bath rock, thanks for the context. Such close quarters where a dog can’t help but have close exposure to strangers warrants a muzzle always

Or simply keep them at home or board them. My feeling is that dogs just don’t belong at crags. 

I’ve had more bad interactions with the lovable lab.  And that is only two in 50+ years.  Never had a problem with pit bulls. We have a pit mix.  Muscular dog but not big. Maybe, our dogs haven’t had any issues, because we treated our dogs well and set limits.  Of course, I don’t frequent crack houses that may have these dangerous pits. 

Adults with two or more dogs in the household are 5 times more likely to be bitten than those living without dogs in the home.

Pure Rocket science!

Good topic for MP, not quite as fun as the simul-rap debate threads but good enough. Every time this topic comes up, I just remember we have anti-vaxxers out there and suddenly it isn't as unbelievable that there are people in denial of gene expression outside of physical traits. Humans literally selected these traits into the breeds, its the same reason my border collie herds me even though nobody ever taught him the first thing about it - unless he's been watching youtube videos at night about it without my knowledge.

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(22)01379-4

Selective breeding of domestic dogs has generated diverse breeds often optimized for performing specialized tasks. Despite the heritability of breed-typical behavioral traits, identification of causal loci has proven challenging due to the complexity of canine population structure. We overcome longstanding difficulties in identifying genetic drivers of canine behavior by developing a framework for understanding relationships between breeds and the behaviors that define them, utilizing genetic data for over 4,000 domestic, semi-feral, and wild canids and behavioral survey data for over 46,000 dogs. We identify ten major canine genetic lineages and their behavioral correlates and show that breed diversification is predominantly driven by non-coding regulatory variation. We determine that lineage-associated genes converge in neurodevelopmental co-expression networks, identifying a sheepdog-associated enrichment for interrelated axon guidance functions. This work presents a scaffold for canine diversification that positions the domestic dog as an unparalleled system for revealing the genetic origins of behavioral diversity.

Claiming that certain dog breeds don't have specific behaviors is hilariously incorrect, implying rather that they're purely conditioned. But oddly enough this claim is limited to certain breeds in which empirical data has routinely shown a disproportionate number of fatal attacks on humans, and countless more on other dogs. But what is that in contrast to people who own a pit and anecdotally claim the entire breed to be harmless because theirs has yet to act up?

Bruno Schull wrote:

f you look at the statistics, I beleive you will find that no breed is more inclined to bite than another.   The damage inflicted by bites, and fatal attacks, that's a different story, as I wrote above.  It's like the liklihood/consequence risk equation.  Dogs with higher consequences require more control.  I support the mandatiory sterilization of these fighting breeds, as well as greater controls on opwnership, and punshments adn penalties for not following guidelines.  But the resources just aren't there for enforcement.

Why don't you own a pitbull?

J E wrote:

Tell me where my friends pointer picked up the behavior of pointing, despite never being trained? Why do shepherds nip and ankles and try to herd children, despite having never stepped paw on a farm let alone seen a farm animal? there are behaviors and temperaments tied closely to a dogs genetics. Denying that is just willful ignorance

You're missing my point. First, I am not denying this. Second, these traits can easily be trained out of a dog, for lack of better terms...but more importantly, and my main point is that, these behaviors are inherent to some breeds, thus making it the owners (humans) responsibility to not allow these behaviors to be detrimental, harmful, or overall negative. For every angry pit bull out there, there is also one that is a complete softy who doesn't want to leave the coach. For every cattle dog nipping at heels there is one that's eyes don't leave it's owner. Growing up around hunting dogs also taught me that many pointers don't point without training or careful selective breeding. Unless the dog was entirely feral and approaches a human unsolicited, then it is the humans fault 95% of the time. 

Misinformation abounds, but some replies are spot on.

Some breeds ARE more likely to bite. Studies have been done. The breeds most likely to bite are Dachshund, Australian Cattle Dog, Border Collie, Beagle, Jack Russell Terrier, Chihauhuas, Dalmatians, Cocker Spaniels.

However small dogs don’t do much damage. The dogs most often involved in attacks with serious injuries or deaths are Pit Bulls, Rottweilers, German Shepherds, Bulldog type breeds (American Bulldogs, English Bulldogs, Boxers) Dobermans, Labradors. Pit bulls are popular with irresponsible owners increasing the number of overall bites per year.

If you want to ban Pit Bulls you should want to ban other large powerful breeds (at least Rottweilers and German Shepherds), because that’s what makes them dangerous.

Dogs bred for dog fighting were bred to be aggressive to dogs, NOT to be aggressive to humans. If a handler got bit that dog was not bred.

All dogs are born with unique temperaments, even from the same litter (just like human siblings can have different personalities). Some dogs are skittish from the get go and some are mellow. How a dog is treated also affects its behavior. A mistreated dog can become a problem, even more so if it was skittish to begin with. So though there may be breeds more likely to bite, but you need to judge the individual dog. There’s plenty of Labradors that have bit people and plenty of Pit Bulls that wouldn’t hurt a fly.

2 or more dogs become a pack, often hunting instincts kick in and they’re way dangerous than a single dog. Having 2 or more big dogs off leash in public the sign of an ignorant, selfish dog owner.

Any responsible dog owner should be well aware of their dogs temperament and treat it accordingly. A big dog that shows aggression to people shouldn’t be out in public, much less off leash.

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

You're missing my point. First, I am not denying this. Second, these traits can easily be trained out of a dog, for lack of better terms...but more importantly, and my main point is that, these behaviors are inherent to some breeds, thus making it the owners (humans) responsibility to not allow these behaviors to be detrimental, harmful, or overall negative. For every angry pit bull out there, there is also one that is a complete softy who doesn't want to leave the coach. For every cattle dog nipping at heels there is one that's eyes don't leave it's owner. Growing up around hunting dogs also taught me that many pointers don't point without training or careful selective breeding. Unless the dog was entirely feral and approaches a human unsolicited, then it is the humans fault 95% of the time.

Maybe we shouldn’t need to train bloodthirst out of house pets, eh? Maybe we shouldn’t keep breeding pets that are genetically predisposed to violence, yeah?

Again. The statistic are out there. Pit bulls are the most violent and dangerous by a large margin. You’re ignoring cold hard facts because they have cute puppy dog eyes

@marc

Then the children should be left at home with a babysitter.

my most recent day out started at kings landing in Staunton. Weekend, so lots of families and dogs about. Three dogs at this crag, all chilling out maxing relaxing all cool. Meanwhile, the kids running under my rope while lead belaying, stepping on my flakes pile, hopping all over the wall, etc. 

Don’t even get me started on kids in the gym