Getting divorced and climbing is a big reason why. Advice?

A V wrote:

Reading this thread just reminds me that my notions of love are might be overly idealistic and romantic - I am currently fighting to keep the cynicism at bay, as always

Don't get discouraged. There's a very strong selection bias here.

A V wrote:

Reading this thread just reminds me that my notions of love are might be overly idealistic and romantic - I am currently fighting to keep the cynicism at bay, as always

Cynicism is not the only alternative to idealism and romance.

Realistic expectations would be best. And that’s not cynical. 

A V wrote:

… my notions of love might be overly idealistic and romantic - I am currently fighting to keep the cynicism at bay, as always

Yes, keep up the good fight and avoid becoming a jaded cynic like these others.  Your idealism and romanticism definitely apply in the first few months. 

Logan Petersonwrote:

OP, I don't know enough about your relationship to hypothesize about the cause. I can tell you a little about my marriage/divorce and maybe you can relate.

Each of us went into the marriage with motives that we couldn't admit to, even to ourselves. Sure, I climbed way too much for her taste and spent way too much time indoors together for mine, but these were just symptoms. The problem was that the marriage was established largely on lies, lies that have endured for many generations. We believed on some level that one would/could save, fix, complete, or otherwise change the other. How childish and grandiose of us. There was plenty of honesty and internal work, too but that didn't save the marriage. In fact, it's largely why we divorced.

Not disagreeing with you, Logan, but offering an alt-perspective on what you characterize as lies. I hear so many people talking about "saving a marriage" as if a marriage itself is a ship that's either going to go down or keep floating if you bail fast enough. From my POV (married two decades, kids, pretty amicable divorce) a marriage is a process, a growth process, that isn't either saved or failed. Our unconscious minds and attachment styles almost inevitably choose romantic partners that will help us work through our family of origin traumas and other shit. Then, one way or another, we DO that. Sometimes people keep doing it over and over again with different people. But trust me, when you encounter difficulties in relationships, it's you and your own psycho-emotional stuff that's driving it. Not "her" or "him" or whatever. I've learned and grown and resolved enormous parts of myself largely due to my marriage. Kudos and much gratitude to my ex-wife for being a catalyst for that. Even though we don't want to be tied together any more. I consider my marriage to have been a huge success. And, like everything, it had a shelf life. 

­Sorry to hear about the relationship challenges. I’m no marriage counselor, but I did marry my best climbing partner in 1979...and we’re still climbing together...with two grandkids now.

Having a significant other who climbs is the gold standard. Nothing beats seeing those warm eyes looking at you from the other side of the ledge. I’ve got some great climbing buddies, but it’s not the same as ‘friends with benefits’.

I remember a time about 7 years in when I was not real happy in our marriage. She was perfect: smart,  fit, strong, funny, a perfect climber babe...but something was off kilter in my head. For some dumb reason I was ready to bail. But Thursday rolled around and I was like: “Dang, I need a partner this weekend. Maybe I can put up with her for a few more days.”

On Saturday we were half way up a multipitch route, sitting on a fat ledge and not saying much. I was racking for the next pitch and happened to look over at her. Something clicked into place in my brain and I realized I was on a ledge with a very beautiful woman...and she was my woman. Climbing basically saved my marriage, over and over.

Things got harder for us when we had kids. But we were lucky to have my mom and dad nearby. They’d come on our climbing trips to babysit in the campsite. Both sets of parents were always happy to babysit for day trips. She and I would climb all day...then come back to the kids. 

We had a few partners (team of 3) who could tolerate children and  managed to still take our long climbing road trips together. I knew one guy who paid his 17 year old baby sitter to come to Yosemite for a week in the station wagon so he and his wife could still climb together.

When the kids were toddlers I cut back on climbing and did a lot of windsurfing. It was almost as fun, and didn’t require a partner. The kids liked playing on the beach...and she and I could take turns sailing.

When the kids were older, we would do compromise trips where we would climb at Smith for 4 days. The kids would play at the base of the cliff, chasing lizards and stuff. Then we’d  head out to the coast. She and the kids hiked or played in the surf while I painted landscapes. We each got what we wanted...and we were together as a family.

Now that we are in our sixties, she’s cut back on hard climbing due to some back and hand problems. Poor old body is wearing out. But she still cruises 5.9 friction and loves jtree. 

I still love the dirtbag life style and take several 3 week road trips each year, plus a lot of weekends. She often flies in to join me for the last week. Again, it seems that marriage is about compromise. 

She loves puttering around the yard, doing her fitness walks, and helping to babysit our two grandkids. That’s sort of a family tradition at this point. But she starts to miss me after a few weeks...as I do her.

So that’s my story. I have no easy answers...other than that climbing didn’t hurt my marriage, it saved it.

Here is my Fall road trip, where she flew in for the last week.

This is me, my wife (climbing partner since 1976), and our two kids a year ago.

Beautiful Mark! Miss you dude. 

Life goals, Mark, life GOALS

Mark Webster, your post (and the woman who inspired it) is a keeper. Hats off to you, sir.

Mark's story is so beautiful but the post above it says everything has a shelf life. I don't know what to believe!

Mark,

What a beautiful love story!!

What a beautiful family,

Thanks for sharing

Astrid- any thing is possible. Both good and bad.

Mark, I'm heartened to know that at least 2 people have made it work, Good on you both!

Aaron! I wish we didn't live a thousand miles apart. To those who commented, thanks. I've been incredibly lucky. I sometimes wonder if it helped that my parents, and grandparents all had lifetime marriages. My wife's family is the same way. We may have absorbed some relationship skills growing up?

Not to say you can't learn that stuff elsewhere, from books, therapy, life...hell, I don't know. It's been sad watching so many marriages fall apart around us. We often know both people. And they're usually both super smart and kind...good climbers too. Divorce seems to be the norm, and often for the best. We've seen many people hook up with new partners and be stronger than ever.

I didn't mention that we also backcountry ski together, since day one. So we have both a summer and a winter sport we love to do together. She loves to hike, which I find pointless, but she'll lure me with the promise of a good view, so I bring my easel. It's something else we can do together.

See you out there climbing!

Mark’s post may be the best I’ve ever seen on MP. Congratulations on living the dream and making it work for you and your family. 

Thank you everyone for sharing your wisdom. I really really want a climbing accidents in north america but for relationships and this has been pretty close. I find it incredibly frustrating when I see a seemingly perfect relationship end out of nowhere and there's no explanation as to why. I understand it's none of my business and I am not owed an explanation, but it makes me think, 'That could happen to us,' and it's scary. We've been married for three years, together for ten. I'm learning in this thread this next year is supposed to be the hardest and this one has been pretty hard already. Am I doomed repeat the actions of my parents? Should I get a head of the inevitable and end things now? Is this connection that I feel is rare and special easily found elsewhere? I ask myself these questions frequently but a lot of these responses give me hope and I think have pointed me in the right general direction, so thank you.

Austin Shaverwrote:

Thank you everyone for sharing your wisdom. I really really want a climbing accidents in north america but for relationships and this has been pretty close. I find it incredibly frustrating when I see a seemingly perfect relationship end out of nowhere and there's no explanation as to why. I understand it's none of my business and I am not owed an explanation, but it makes me think, 'That could happen to us,' and it's scary. We've been married for three years, together for ten. I'm learning in this thread this next year is supposed to be the hardest and this one has been pretty hard already. Am I doomed repeat the actions of my parents? Should I get a head of the inevitable and end things now? Is this connection that I feel is rare and special easily found elsewhere? I ask myself these questions frequently but a lot of these responses give me hope and I think have pointed me in the right general direction, so thank you.

Actually? 

There's room for considerable hope!

My girlfriends and myself were all living with our guys, bitd, and all of us for quite a few years. Comparing notes about the dumbasses we'd been living with, we all realized that somewhere around 13ish, 15ish years in, it was a lot smoother. A LOT smoother 

We scratched our heads over that for awhile, then all came to the same, humbling, realization.

That's about the time we finally gave them up as hopeless. Truly, utterly, completely hopeless. Never becoming the man we wanted  The dumbasses were never going to change.....and we completely gave up trying.

And then realized that the person those dumbasses actually were, in real life, not the fantasy life expectations we packed around in our head for many years?

Turned out to be pretty decent dudes. 

Then?

You might be with someone who will be able to put up with your own dumbassery.

Or not. 

But that other, simply being who they are now, instead of a constant "failure" at what they never were, helps a whole bunch. 

At the very least? You might net a friendship with someone who cares deeply, and knows you. Every bit of you. Sometimes, a 24/7 times forever relationship, under the same roof, isn't the best choice, just the one we're taught is the "goal". 

It's easy to forget that marriage has always been a contractual arrangement, a partnership, not the Amazon Prime fulfillment center with overnight delivery.

Best, H.

Old lady Hwrote:

Actually? 

There's room for considerable hope!

My girlfriends and myself were all living with our guys, bitd, and all of us for quite a few years. Comparing notes about the dumbasses we'd been living with, we all realized that somewhere around 13ish, 15ish years in, it was a lot smoother. A LOT smoother 

We scratched our heads over that for awhile, then all came to the same, humbling, realization.

That's about the time we finally gave them up as hopeless. Truly, utterly, completely hopeless. Never becoming the man we wanted  The dumbasses were never going to change.....and we completely gave up trying.

And then realized that the person those dumbasses actually were, in real life, not the fantasy life expectations we packed around in our head for many years?

Turned out to be pretty decent dudes. 

Then?

You might be with someone who will be able to put up with your own dumbassery.

Or not. 

But that other, simply being who they are now, instead of a constant "failure" at what they never were, helps a whole bunch. 

At the very least? You might net a friendship with someone who cares deeply, and knows you. Every bit of you. Sometimes, a 24/7 times forever relationship, under the same roof, isn't the best choice, just the one we're taught is the "goal". 

It's easy to forget that marriage has always been a contractual arrangement, a partnership, not the Amazon Prime fulfillment center with overnight delivery.

Best, H.

That sums up most every woman in that denial stage of every relationship ever. Fck Disney, Hallmark, and Sex in the City. They've corrupted the minds of all the women who live in a fictional reality (which is most that ive come across). The few women I know that are happy, content, and accepts their partner for who they are, are post menopause, 60+, and have no expectations. They also have financial security. 

When it all boils down, most women want financial security, and a trophy to brag about to their family and friends. Usually kids are the real trophy though, not the guy who helped make them. Moral of the story... if you want to be in a relationship that lasts (in the US), make a bunch of money, sadly.

R/unpopularopinions

Disney / romcoms : Womens' unrealistic expectations of men :: Pornhub : Men's unrealistic expectations of women

Austin Shaverwrote:

Thank you everyone for sharing your wisdom. I really really want a climbing accidents in north america but for relationships and this has been pretty close. I find it incredibly frustrating when I see a seemingly perfect relationship end out of nowhere and there's no explanation as to why.

Keep in mind that outsiders can never tell what’s going on in a “seemingly perfect” relationship. Unless you live with another couple in close quarters for a long time, you only see them in their best.

I understand it's none of my business and I am not owed an explanation, but it makes me think, 'That could happen to us,' and it's scary.

“All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.”

We've been married for three years, together for ten. I'm learning in this thread this next year is supposed to be the hardest and this one has been pretty hard already. Am I doomed repeat the actions of my parents? Should I get a head of the inevitable and end things now? 

If that is how you are thinking, then yes, you should… but why are you thinking this way? 

There is no magical explosion that ruins everything at the year mark 7, or 3, or 15, or whatever. It is just an average length of time that it takes people who are unhappy in the relationship to realize/process/accept that the relationship is not worth saving. You always have the choice to end things earlier, or to accept that the successful marriage is work, and start working on it now, and not when you hit your 7-year anniversary.

Is this connection that I feel is rare and special easily found elsewhere? I ask myself these questions frequently but a lot of these responses give me hope and I think have pointed me in the right general direction, so thank you.

Someone had quoted Dan Savage earlier in this thread, about “price of admission”. I do like his take on “there is no such thing as THE ONE”. Instead, there are many, many 0.7’s, and you round them up to 1, if you are willing to accept the 0.3 that is not your perfect ideal, because you really like the 0.7.

F r i t zwrote:

R/unpopularopinions

Disney / romcoms : Womens' unrealistic expectations of men :: Pornhub : Men's unrealistic expectations of women

I would argue that Perfect Princes don't exist, yet bimbo dumb babe that just wants to hook up with anyone that can manage their bills actually does. Looking for either is a guarantee for a disaster though! One will land you a psychopath/narcissist, and the other, std's and giving your house away.

Matthew -  soft catch or no, I think your chances of belaying Heather dropped significantly with that second to last post.