Getting divorced and climbing is a big reason why. Advice?

The Möbius Thread.

Strings Attached wrote:

The Möbius Thread.

That's the nature of the subject. Also this:

Don't need no man!

Mark Pilate wrote:

I’m not so sure Tim misunderstood.  The angle of the author was about doing what she enjoyed, but it sure seemed like the common usage of the term was “judgy” from other women.  

As for Gillian, Wtf is She talking about?  She actually sounds perfect for William.   Two fundamentally angry people who expect little from a relationship cuz they never bothered to find better (or give better a chance).  

She’s revealing her own dysfunction and bias here.   In no way is the definition of a “cool girl” that she posits below, anywhere near the definition that I know (or in my circles of guy friends).   But then I don’t hang with gamers, football fanatics, or cheap beer drinkers really.  Maybe she needs to up her game rather than assume her experience is the natural state of things, or that “men” are some monolithic block just because by her own apparent admission, she chose (or chooses) unwisely.  

Quote from Gillian’s piece…

“Men always say that as the defining compliment, don’t they? She’s a cool girl. Being the Cool Girl means I am a hot, brilliant, funny woman who adores football, poker, dirty jokes, and burping, who plays video games, drinks cheap beer, loves threesomes and anal sex, and jams hot dogs and hamburgers into her mouth like she’s hosting the world’s biggest culinary gang bang while somehow maintaining a size 2, because Cool Girls are above all hot. Hot and understanding. Cool Girls never get angry; they only smile in a chagrined, loving manner and let their men do whatever they want. Go ahead, shit on me, I don’t mind, I’m the Cool Girl.”

Only true in very limited and lame circles.  

She cements her jaded outlook with the notion that men who like strong women are either liars or cheaters.  

My recommendation for her is to drop the jaded chip on her shoulder.   She’s in a catch 22.   The men she’s looking for (reading between the lines and admittedly jumping to conclusions) who actually like strong women and women who are confident and comfortable with themselves can smell that she doesn’t appear to actually be a strong woman…or she wouldn’t judge both men and other women so negatively or understand there’s another side to the coin she’s not seeing.  

I guess the cool girl monologue needed more context. It's a passage from the novel "Gone Girl" by Gillian Flynn. Fiction, not auto-biography. You may have seen the movie version with Rosamund Pike and Ben Affleck. Anyway, the point of the "cool girl" passage is not to criticize a woman, but to point out the unrealistic expectations placed upon her...to be cool, to be fun, to be down for whatever her man is into, to not be difficult by having her own needs, boundaries, or expectations. That is the context in which I posted it.

Neither I nor anyone in my circle afaik uses the term "cool girl" (or worse, "pick me girl") to denigrate other women. I was responding to William Carson's comment "ive got a little sweetheart now, weve been together going on two years. [...] it absolutely HAS always been easy, and the second its no longer easy, im fuckin outta here. and she knows that." I've seen about four different long-term relationships come apart when the female half of the pair decided that she was no longer willing to overwrite her own personality and needs in order to be the fun and easy supporting cast member to their main character boyfriend / husband (and yeah, true story, all of these relationships involved some combination of climbing, mountain biking, sea kayaking, hang gliding, living in a van, sailing around the world, and/or international relocation, all instigated by the guy). Obviously I don't know all the details of WC's relationship and I'm not trying to criticize his gf. Just discussing a pattern I've seen in life, and it came up for me here. Of course, this dynamic is not unique to traditional heterosexual relationships. Of course, women can be into travel and adventure sports too. The rub is when one partner is always following the other's lead in order to be game, easy, and cool, and there's no balance.

I can understand the appeal of having relationships, whether friends or romances, that are light, fun, and easy. My main point is that I hope everyone has someone in their circle they can rely on and be a full human being around, complete with flaws and needs and troubles, and that we all are willing to be there for our imperfect loved ones.

Certainly if the minuses in a relationship consistently outweigh the pluses and you're never having fun, that's not a great relationship to be in, and no one is obligated to stay.

I've noticed that "fun" seems to be the key to many folks on this thread.  Fortunately, I've figured out that there is a ton more to a full life than just fun.  Heck, some of the best climbs I've done had plenty of "non-fun" stuff to get through...

L Kap wrote:

I guess the cool girl monologue needed more context. It's a passage from the novel "Gone Girl" by Gillian Flynn. Fiction, not auto-biography. You may have seen the movie version with Rosamund Pike and Ben Affleck.

Aaha, now I get it.  I thought the link was an article written by Gillian Flynn, but it’s a quote from a character that she had written.  One she wrote as a narcissistic psycho character, nonetheless.  Yes saw the movie.  

Anyway, the point of the "cool girl" passage is not to criticize a woman, but to point out the unrealistic expectations placed upon her...to be cool, to be fun, to be down for whatever her man is into, to not be difficult by having her own needs, boundaries, or expectations. 

I have been accused of living in a different universe sometimes, but is this really a real “expectation” placed on “the cool girl”  or is it mostly the proverbial “what we have here is a failure to communicate” ?  It sounds like she is faking it and that never works.  Resentment always oozes out, either consciously or unconsciously.  Sincere and firm expectations and needs are what a “real” cool girl establishes honestly and early.

I've seen about four different long-term relationships come apart when the female half of the pair decided that she was no longer willing to overwrite her own personality and needs in order to be the fun and easy supporting cast member to their main character boyfriend / husband (and yeah, true story, all of these relationships involved some combination of climbing, mountain biking, sea kayaking, hang gliding, living in a van, sailing around the world, and/or international relocation, all instigated by the guy).

Well of course!   Recipe for disaster, resentment, and unhappiness.   Honest communication!

I had first hand experience with this years ago.  fortunately, she came “clean” in a matter of weeks. She had asked ME out originally to go camping. Talked up new adventures, etc. two weeks later we did an easy mountain together. On the way down she got quiet, then suddenly exploded with a series of repeated “FUCK THIS!!” fuck ALL of THIS!! As she tossed her backpack into the bushes and just looked at me. Obviously I must’ve had a deer in the headlights stunned and slightly scared look on my face as I had no idea what was happening and then she started laughing her ass off and couldn’t stop. She admitted to hating outdoor shit but thought that was the only way to finally get my attention as she had been flirting with me for months to no avail (I had had no idea).

Anyway we got everything out in the open and had a great relationship once everyone was clued in and being honest.   She didn’t know (or doubted) that I enjoyed her regardless of camping or climbing.  At least she only faked it a few weeks  

Obviously I don't know all the details of WC's relationship and I'm not trying to criticize his gf. Just discussing a pattern I've seen in life, and it came up for me here. Of course, this dynamic is not unique to traditional heterosexual relationships. Of course, women can be into travel and adventure sports too. The rub is when one partner is always following the other's lead in order to be game, easy, and cool, and there's no balance.

Totally agree.  Aside from honesty and communication, confidence in self is key.   Nothing erodes a relationship like imbalanced insecurities  or martyrdom.   It HAS to be mutually beneficial and balanced or it’s just a fake vinyl printed veneer over cheap fiberboard and not the real thing, and  nobody is really happy   

Mark Pilate wrote:

Aaha, now I get it.  I thought the link was an article written by Gillian Flynn, but it’s a quote from a character that she had written.  One she wrote as a narcissistic psycho character, nonetheless.  Yes saw the movie.  

I have been accused of living in a different universe sometimes, but is this really a real “expectation” placed on “the cool girl”  or is it mostly the proverbial “what we have here is a failure to communicate” ?  It sounds like she is faking it and that never works.  Resentment always oozes out, either consciously or unconsciously.  Sincere and firm expectations and needs are what a “real” cool girl establishes honestly and early.

I mean, you can have your own interpretation of what makes a person cool, and I'd probably agree with you. "Cool girl" just a term Flynn used to describe a certain type of expectation that I've definitely seen in the world: the hope/expectation/pressure that your fantasy partner will be into whatever you want them to be into, seamlessly, easy, fun, cool. I haven't dated in a long time but my memory aligns with a bunch of articles I've read about how people often present a glossy, fun, cool version of themselves at first - because who wants to dump and deal with all your foibles on a first date? And maybe you just want to be the best, uncomplicated, breezy, delightful fantasy version of yourself FOR yourself too, for a little while. Some relationships never transition to a more holistic you-get-all-of-me connection, either by choice, by being young and inexperienced, or because of pressure from one partner (e.g. "I'll leave you if you start being not-fun".)  

Well of course!   Recipe for disaster, resentment, and unhappiness.   Honest communication!

I had first hand experience with this years ago.  fortunately, she came “clean” in a matter of weeks. She had asked ME out originally to go camping. Talked up new adventures, etc. two weeks later we did an easy mountain together. On the way down she got quiet, then suddenly exploded with a series of repeated “FUCK THIS!!” fuck ALL of THIS!! As she tossed her backpack into the bushes and just looked at me. Obviously I must’ve had a deer in the headlights stunned and slightly scared look on my face as I had no idea what was happening and then she started laughing her ass off and couldn’t stop. She admitted to hating outdoor shit but thought that was the only way to finally get my attention as she had been flirting with me for months to no avail (I had had no idea).

Anyway we got everything out in the open and had a great relationship once everyone was clued in and being honest.   She didn’t know (or doubted) that I enjoyed her regardless of camping or climbing.  At least she only faked it a few weeks  

Funny story. Yeah, I'd call that "faking it" too. It isn't a strategy I would choose, but it sounds like it worked for her since she did get your attention. I'm glad you two were able to be honest and figure out where you aligned. 

Totally agree.  Aside from honesty and communication, confidence in self is key.   Nothing erodes a relationship like imbalanced insecurities  or martyrdom.   It HAS to be mutually beneficial and balanced or it’s just a fake vinyl printed veneer over cheap fiberboard and not the real thing, and  nobody is really happy   

We agree! Cool. 

Possibly of interest to some folks on this thread, some thoughts on relationships from Joni Mitchell: 

“I don’t know if I’ve learned anything yet! I did learn how to have a happy home, but I consider myself fortunate in that regard because I could’ve rolled right by it. Everybody has a superficial side and a deep side, but this culture doesn’t place much value on depth — we don’t have shamans or soothsayers, and depth isn’t encouraged or understood. Surrounded by this shallow, glossy society we develop a shallow side, too, and we become attracted to fluff. That’s reflected in the fact that this culture sets up an addiction to romance based on insecurity — the uncertainty of whether or not you’re truly united with the object of your obsession is the rush people get hooked on. I’ve seen this pattern so much in myself and my friends and some people never get off that line.

“But along with developing my superficial side, I always nurtured a deeper longing, so even when I was falling into the trap of that other kind of love, I was hip to what I was doing. I recently read an article in Esquire magazine called ‘The End of Sex,’ that said something that struck me as very true. It said: “If you want endless repetition, see a lot of different people. If you want infinite variety, stay with one.” What happens when you date is you run all your best moves and tell all your best stories — and in a way, that routine is a method for falling in love with yourself over and over.

“You can’t do that with a longtime mate because he knows all that old material. With a long relationship, things die then are rekindled, and that shared process of rebirth deepens the love. It’s hard work, though, and a lot of people run at the first sign of trouble. You’re with this person, and suddenly you look like an asshole to them or they look like an asshole to you — it’s unpleasant, but if you can get through it you get closer and you learn a way of loving that’s different from the neurotic love enshrined in movies. It’s warmer and has more padding to it.” ~ Joni Mitchell

***

I especially resonated with this part: "What happens when you date is you run all your best moves and tell all your best stories — and in a way, that routine is a method for falling in love with yourself over and over. You can’t do that with a longtime mate because he knows all that old material."

It's true. Being with one person for the long haul, you find yourself bored by yourself and each other if you don't keep progressing. I haven't mastered this, but it's an incentive to be a more interesting person, live a more interesting life, and go deeper instead of falling back on who you have been.

But maybe not so relevant to the OP. Ben, how are you doing? 

x15x15 wrote:

I've noticed that "fun" seems to be the key to many folks on this thread.  Fortunately, I've figured out that there is a ton more to a full life than just fun.  Heck, some of the best climbs I've done had plenty of "non-fun" stuff to get through...

True, this. Also, when talking about what they want from life most people say "happy." But, really, IMO, what is important is to be fulfilled. Which is way more than just happy and includes a lot of other emotions and experiences. 

Andrew Rice wrote:

True, this. Also, when talking about what they want from life most people say "happy." But, really, IMO, what is important is to be fulfilled. Which is way more than just happy and includes a lot of other emotions and experiences. 

Yes but only the best goes on the gram

M M wrote:

Yes but only the best goes on the gram

And that just feeds the problem.  When people are constantly on their phones and see posts on social media of this or that person always happy then anytime their own life isn't exactly like that they get depressed.

Quality thread. (At the very least, by MP or social media comment threads)

I’ll jump in to share my own experience as it relates to climbing and relationships. The Joni Mitchell stuff posted certainly rings true looking back on dating in my past. Good post.

currently engaged, been in this relationship 6 years. Got into climbing about 5 years ago. There was a time early in that process where I’d ask my partner to climb with me all the time. She went on a couple outdoor trips, and even showed up to the indoor gym to trade belays before work / school at 630am.

Eventually with a little bit of strife, and probably pretty slowly on my end, we/i realized climbing was not her thing at all, and was mainly my thing. This was actually a huge healthy great turning point in the relationship.

Then the challenge changed to how often I trained, and how often I go outside. Early in my outside days, I was going after easy mileage as much as possible. My partner was supportive, but eventually there was inevitable conflict about my time outside. It’s not realistic to work 5-6 days a week and then spend most weekends outside. Eventually this was resolved by a shift to a bit more training and bit less days outside. We’ve kept it as a topic that can be openly discussed anytime without pressure. I think the main reason it doesn’t create conflict anymore is she can tell that I want to prioritize free time to spend with her, and she knows the amount of joy/fulfillment/ etc etc climbing brings me. I think it also helps that I have enough skills now, to be able to snatch and grab a multipitch and be back in time for lunch, instead of coming home wrecked at 10pm literally every single time I go outside.

There was also a chapter after this, where it was clear I had found (hopefully, if I’m lucky)a  life long passion not related to work or our relationship. There wasn’t a conflict, but I think when other people don’t currently have something like that in their own lives, and see someone who does, it can create a sense of loss, or feelings that you should, and why don’t you type thing. I’ve noticed this dynamic with other folks. It’s part of why I’ve slowly learned to lay off the stoke and climbing talk around normies. Very interesting. In the case of my partner, through her own work of removing timelines and expectations, and with me showing through actions and words, that I’m eager and ready to support any of those passions that do come up for her, it has shifted to fertile ground for progress in our relationship, rather than a challenge.

Currently. I get outside about 30 days a year roughly. It’s about half of what I’d like. Im looking forward to coming up with a creative solution to making that number more like 50, if possible. Maybe more bouldering, yikes. I have shifted to more of a training focus, which can also be great most of the time. I don’t have any resentments about it. I used to listen to a sex/relationship podcast back in the day a lot, from a dude named Dan savage. He always used to talk about whether two people were willing to “pay the price of admission” in a relationship. For me that’s somewhat applicable. In the case of my partner, I absolutely am. If she wanted me to never climb outside without her, that would seem unreasonable, but her communication of her needs has never felt unreasonable. We go climbing together 2-3 times a year, and if I bring a cooler and chair, carry everything, and she can casually TR when she wants, she has a good time lol. She enjoys watching comp climbing. We watch good climbing films on occasion, and she’ll even watch some climbing YouTube with me, if magnus remembers to have his GF in the video. She’s super supportive of my training and my silly goals, and listens to me process and talk about the process of climbing, far more than I could reasonably expect. She’s highly knowledgeable about climbing for someone who climbs less than 10 times per year lol.

Don’t know if anyone has had similar experiences or if any of this is helpful. I don’t know the intricacies of the work involved in parenting/marriage/working/climbing when that’s how the priorities land. I respect most of the differing viewpoints on this thread and have mostly enjoyed reading them. 

Cole D wrote:

Quality thread. (At the very least, by MP or social media comment threads...

Don’t know if anyone has had similar experiences or if any of this is helpful. I don’t know the intricacies of the work involved in parenting/marriage/working/climbing when that’s how the priorities land. I respect most of the differing viewpoints on this thread and have mostly enjoyed reading them. 

Sounds like you've got a great relationship. The key to good ones is being able to take joy in each other's joy and passions without needing to share those same passions. Sounds like you've got that. 

Cole D wrote:

Currently. I get outside about [X] days a year roughly. It’s about half of what I’d like. 

That's true for just about everyone here.

And if it were to double, it would still be half.

Christopher Smith wrote:

And that just feeds the problem.  When people are constantly on their phones and see posts on social media of this or that person always happy then anytime their own life isn't exactly like that they get depressed.

Agreed. I have a few friends who let everyone know when things arent great through social media and I appreciate the honesty of it, its rare. I find it kind of creepy when people post just to get compliments instead of posting for conversation. It makes me think there is a whole generation out there in constant mental suffering because nobody is complimenting them enough.

Of course this conversation circles back to getting likes on a website. Are you posting for likes or are you posting for honest conversation?

soft crux wrote:

That's true for just about everyone here.

And if it were to double, it would still be half.

Great point. I’ve just heard the 50 days number thrown around as a minimum, keeping training benefits well transferable to rock, days out number, so as arbitrary as it is, I’m hoping to get there somehow.

OP, I don't know enough about your relationship to hypothesize about the cause. I can tell you a little about my marriage/divorce and maybe you can relate.

Each of us went into the marriage with motives that we couldn't admit to, even to ourselves. Sure, I climbed way too much for her taste and spent way too much time indoors together for mine, but these were just symptoms. The problem was that the marriage was established largely on lies, lies that have endured for many generations. We believed on some level that one would/could save, fix, complete, or otherwise change the other. How childish and grandiose of us. There was plenty of honesty and internal work, too but that didn't save the marriage. In fact, it's largely why we divorced.

I related to the Mitchell quote, and to Old Lady H's post. Relationships are hard. The American model of marriage cannot be explained except as a business partnership (or competition), and it's dangerous to develop a romance with a business partner. But who is thinking rationally when they propose or conceive? Neither sound like fun.

Perhaps the best relationship advice I've ever received was to keep my eyes peeled for others who are in the relationship that I would want. 18 years later, I'm still waiting to behold it.

Good things about divorce: I climb more now. My ex now has at least one thing she wanted (a child). I have a lot more respect for married people. I have a lot more compassion for my divorced parents.

I promise you that it will change.

Ryan don't worry I'm doing ok. Just been busy with sorting my life, work, moving houses, and actually going on a mini-trip. I've been lurking in the thread and I appreciate all the hard earned wisdom that people have shared (and to those who thought this was a good place to discuss the history of religion or whatever please grow up and take it somewhere else).
To answer one question, we did do some marriage counseling but it didn't really go anywhere. 

Ben F wrote:

mini-trip. 

Right on! I hope you get a chance to clear your head, refresh your perspective and pull down hard on some good stone. 

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