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Tradiban
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Jun 20, 2011
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Apr 2004
· Points: 11,610
So, would you guys allow posting of routes or boulder problems that only have very slight variants from an original line? Consider this line: mountainproject.com/v/alpin… With this line: mountainproject.com/v/raptu… Of course there is no harm in doing this extra line but I think posting it separately with a new name and grade creates confusion when a visiting climber is trying to navigate MP. Better to simply make a comment under the original line. If I came to this area not as a local I would say "Sweet! There's 10 good problems here!" Then, when I got there I would probably say "Lame, 8 of the 10 are one move variants of the same line." Frankly, I would be embarrassed as a local to show someone this as it looks like we are trying to show off more than we actually got. Discuss amongst yourselves!
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Ryan Williams
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Jun 20, 2011
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London (sort of)
· Joined May 2009
· Points: 1,245
I agree. I think it's a bit silly to list variations of boulder problems. Most problems have variations and like you said, documenting them as different problems gives a visiting climber a false sense of what the area is all about. However, this is why you have an option to comment. Anyone who bothers to read about bouldering on this site is probably going to read a few of the comments. It's pretty obvious from a glance that the general consensus is that these are not two different boulder problems. People are always doing contrived variations to routes/problems and putting in squeez jobs so that they can claim a first ascent. Kind of a joke if you ask me but it happens everywhere. Many print guidebooks have the same issue of when to stop listing stuff and in the end some of then end up looking kind of stupid. All it really does is create a record of how little some people understand climbing. When I go bouldering all I need to know is how to get to the boulders and which ones will be dry. I climb the lines that look cool and fall off the ones that are too hard. It's not like you're heading up a big wall... it's OK to just try the cool looking problems. It's pretty obvious once you pull onto a problem if it's in your grade range or not. Listing every individual problem is more about the climber's ego, not about helping people enjoy the area.
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jaysquared
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Jun 20, 2011
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Minneapolis, MN
· Joined Jul 2008
· Points: 568
My "benefit of the doubt" thought: someone is being very ambitious and adding every variation of a problem to MountainProject so that the community can enjoy new things. My more pessimistic thought: FAs count for more points on 8a.nu, and I don't think you can upgrade a problem and get more points each time you climb a variation of it (though I could be wrong, I don't use the site). I have no problem with variants of boulder problems or routes. Sometimes they come about because the climber didn't know exactly where to go, because someone got bored and tried something new, or someone found a better way to get from the bottom to the top. However, the purpose of MountainProject, or rather the way I've always used it, has been as a guidebook to areas that don't have a guidebook. Adding slight variants as a different problem with a different name is extremely confusing, and often times ambiguous (see: mountainproject.com/v/grasp… ) If I wasn't familiar with the area this would be really confusing. The idea of needing the FAist there to make sure you're doing it right because it is THAT contrived is kind of silly. I agree with Rhoads that the comment section of a problem or route is appropriate for the posting of variants. I'm all for increasing the amount of information available on this database, but using a new name and grade for a variant is not the way to do it.
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John W. Knoernschild
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Jun 20, 2011
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Wisconsin
· Joined Jun 2007
· Points: 2,200
IMO, these routes are going up as a result of grade/FA chasing. All of the variants are above V7 and most of them are either a sit start or an added move or 2 from an existing problem. Some of these problems, such as Foreplay mountainproject.com/v/forep… seem very contrived. You downclimb the start of a V2 into a V3 and finish up. V2+V3=V8?? Oh ya, cause you contrivedly don't use the obvious feet in both problems and force yourself into harder moves. To me, that is not what climbing is about. Personally, I'm sick of all the contrived eliminate routes at the lake. Even the old school routes. I have the mentality now, that I will follow the natural line of the route and not force myself into moves that wouldn't naturally go or feel super contrived. So ya, go ahead and post about your variants of a route, but do it in the comments of that route.
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SteveS
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Jun 20, 2011
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined May 2006
· Points: 2,420
Alright, enough is enough. Gotta defend Ian a bit here. While I may not be super psyched on all the lines that he's putting up, get over it people. 1 - He's not grade chasing. He's just bored and out climbing...and strong. You don't come to devil's lake to chase grades. 2 - He's not putting up eliminates or contrivances, he's just doing variations. John, your example is Foreplay so I'll work with that. Keeping in mind that I don't think either of us have seen the problem in its "finished" state. He started on the same boulder that Intercourse is on and moved into it. It's not exactly down climbing, but traversing. John, if you go out there and use the upper crack, great. That'll be the problem. On top of everything you're questioning the grade without having ever tried it or seeing what the line actually is. While these lines may not be the highest quality problems in the area, they're something and he's psyched on it. Personally I'm not excited to try many of them, but someone might be. I'm done.
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John W. Knoernschild
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Jun 20, 2011
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Wisconsin
· Joined Jun 2007
· Points: 2,200
You make good points Steve. I guess at this point, regardless of the climb, I'm sick of contrived bullcrap at the lake, be it old school or new school. And I'm not questioning the grade of Foreplay, just saying it wouldn't be V8 if you didn't force yourself to not use the obvious feet below you. Your right though, it's just climbing and Ian seems to be having fun out there. That's my 2 cents. Im out.
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Tony B
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Jun 20, 2011
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Around Boulder, CO
· Joined Jan 2001
· Points: 24,679
This discussion is occurring without the party in question participating? Wow. It seems to me that you might want to politely share the link to this with involved parties and ask for their thoughts on the matter or what motivates their particular way on doing things. But, to each his own. I guess it depends what you are trying to accomplish.
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John W. Knoernschild
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Jun 20, 2011
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Wisconsin
· Joined Jun 2007
· Points: 2,200
The link is shared on one of Ian routes in the comments.
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Paul Campbell
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Jun 20, 2011
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Waukesha, WI
· Joined Sep 2007
· Points: 505
First off, I think this should have been posted in the Midwest forums because it really involves a local dispute. On top of that I think everyone needs to remember Bouldering in itself is a contrivance to a certain degree. Variations just add new and difficult moves to existing boulders. Isn't that the point? I think most of what Ian has done is awesome. He has added sit-starts and link-ups to boulders, and most of the problems use new holds and top out at different points on the boulder. Totally legit. I think Forplay is the only contrived problem I have seen mountainproject.com/v/forep… with the elimination of feat used on a V2 on the same face (the route "Center Face") But even this could be a new link-up if he used the existing feet. Honestly it's just not that big of a deal. I look at most of the bouldering guides I own and they have all kinds of sits and link-ups listed.
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sweatpants
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Jun 20, 2011
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Broomfield, CO
· Joined May 2008
· Points: 705
I really dont have a problem with this stuff to be honest. Rapture uses the slopey right hand of AC as a left hand gastony/slopey thing and cuts right. That is a different problem. All over the world people add sits to existing stand starts. Battleship seems a little forced to be honest but whatever. I would however recommend for such a strong dude that is 'bored' that he do what Remo does (and Remo is not bored). And perhaps he already is doing the, but go explore. There is an unlimited number of potential projects and boulders out there around the lake. It seems a bit odd that he seems stuck to adding new problems/variations to existing problems when there are so many things out there still to be found.
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Ian Cotter-Brown
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Jun 20, 2011
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Jun 2011
· Points: 10,161
You guys are funny! It's just bouldering. We do it for fun. If you don't want to climb something then don't climb it! This is entertaining though, which I thank you for. For the record none of these new lines are really eliminates. The big foot I did not use on foreplay is not part of the boulder. Battleship is really cool too, you guys should try it, the first move is probably the hardest. Also I think I gave very good descriptions for the most part and included photos on alot of them. - Ian
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Tradiban
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Jun 21, 2011
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Apr 2004
· Points: 11,610
You guys are off-topic, bouldering is inherently stupid, we all know that! The lines are fine and I don't care about the grades or contrivances per se, the question is does posting them as separate problems cause confusion and cluster-fuck on MP? Maybe it would be cool if you could post problems under problems, as if they were an "area"? Thanks for being a good sport Ian ;) Paul, this is in the general forum because this concerns us all, man. I'm stayin', I'm finishing my coffee.
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Sam Daley
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Jun 21, 2011
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Saint Paul
· Joined Aug 2009
· Points: 2,135
Nick. I really like the question you are asking. I just updated the database to include a few establish problems located on the Wisconsin side of Interstate park. Your question is relevant because, each of these problems has many variations. Some are slight, some are different problems completely. I myself am unsure about how to deal with this problem. My suggestion would be that if the variation changes the character of the route, meaning movement and or grade, in a significant way then it should be added as a new route. Whereas, if it is just a slight change, like a different start for example, then you could either add a comment or new text field in addition to Description, Location, Protection - to include Variation… Ian. I like to know that you are out there getting excited about climbing, keep at it.
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Sam Daley
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Jun 21, 2011
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Saint Paul
· Joined Aug 2009
· Points: 2,135
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Ryan Williams
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Jun 21, 2011
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London (sort of)
· Joined May 2009
· Points: 1,245
Nick Rhoads wrote:You guys are off-topic, bouldering is inherently stupid, we all know that! The lines are fine and I don't care about the grades or contrivances per se, the question is does posting them as separate problems cause confusion and cluster-fuck on MP? Maybe it would be cool if you could post problems under problems, as if they were an "area"? Thanks for being a good sport Ian ;) Paul, this is in the general forum because this concerns us all, man. I'm stayin', I'm finishing my coffee. I probably shouldn't make assumptions about the reason behind the FA and in reality none of that stuff even matters. But I'll agree again that these variations don't need to be posted up on the database as different routes. Like someone said, it's probably just someone being ambitions, but it still doesn't make sense. If I were the admin for this area, I would have contacted the guy personally and talked with him about the best way to post information in a way that is clear to all. In then end the climbing is a local issue and the MP database is an issue to be taken up w/ the correct admin.
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Tony B
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Jun 21, 2011
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Around Boulder, CO
· Joined Jan 2001
· Points: 24,679
One of the potential benefits of doing them seperatly is if you "print the mini-guide" for an area without comments, you get all the info/variants anyway. But I'm not int he least invested in the outcome. I don't boulder.
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Tradiban
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Jun 21, 2011
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Unknown Hometown
· Joined Apr 2004
· Points: 11,610
I saw Ian at the gym today and well, one thing led to another and I wound up hitting him broadside to the head with a #6 C4, he went down like a ton of bricks but bounced up seconds later and stabbed me in the leg with a lapis hair brush that had been sharpened to a point. It got pretty heated after that but ultimately we both agreed that Alpine Club needs one bolt to make it "safe".
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