New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #40

Idaho Bobwrote:

Better to flame out than to rust out IMHO.  

So the ‘logic’ is not climbing and getting out there supposedly reduces the risk of dying from a fall of some kind, and then the alternative is you wind up dying from being inactive and spiritually starved? What an odd alternative- the right choice seems pretty clear to me.

Sounds like a new doctor is needed with a more balanced perspective.

Idaho Bobwrote:

Better to flame out than to rust out IMHO.  

The Kurgan said it best Burn out or fade away

Better to burn out than it is to rust..

Written by Neil Young
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hey_Hey,_My_My_(Into_the_Black)
(lyrics copyright Neil Young)

My my, hey hey
Rock and roll is here to stay
It's better to burn out than to fade away
My my, hey hey

Out of the blue and into the black
They give you this, but you pay for that
And once you're gone you can never come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black

The king is gone but he's not forgotten
This is the story of Johnny Rotten
It's better to burn out than it is to rust
The king is gone but he's not forgotten

Hey hey, my my
Rock and roll can never die
There's more to the picture than meets the eye
Hey hey, my my

Alex Smith wrote:

Bet ol Neil has a few things to say about US imperialism today. Greenland and Canada prolly next

Canada is buying Swedish fighters, just in case   

Somewhere from above or below (depending on your view), Dick Cheney and his Neocon tribe is smiling today…

dragonswrote:

Written by Neil Young
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hey_Hey,_My_My_(Into_the_Black)
(lyrics copyright Neil Young)

My my, hey hey
Rock and roll is here to stay
It's better to burn out than to fade away
My my, hey hey

Out of the blue and into the black
They give you this, but you pay for that
And once you're gone you can never come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black

The king is gone but he's not forgotten
This is the story of Johnny Rotten
It's better to burn out than it is to rust
The king is gone but he's not forgotten

Hey hey, my my
Rock and roll can never die
There's more to the picture than meets the eye
Hey hey, my my

I finally saw Neil this year in concert and he was just really great!

I was not expecting too much but he can still rock!

And I just love this song, Dragons!

Guy Keeseewrote:

.

I don’t know about you guys, are you starting to get “hints” from your doctor about not climbing?
Mine gave me some advice about it. He said “most 70-80 year olds die after falling”… That advice was running through my head the other day as I was down climbing in the dark, coming down from Kern Slabs.

You should have told him that none of those falls were while rock climbing. Nearly all were in the home.

So, using his "logic," it is likely safer to live on the streets.

My doc is German. I said to him, doc - I'm hurting more as I get older.

He tells me, "Yes, and you're weak too., You need to try harder!"

Hehe, no sympathy.

I watched a middle aged runner give herself an “accomplishment cake” and a little party to celebrate some victories for herself (two half marathons and a 190 pound weight loss) and her family.  For me, especially right now, it is easy to feel unaccomplished.  It’s easy to forget to celebrate the big and small wins.  So I like her idea. 

Today was our first return to King Dome, where I have climbed several routes many times in the past but none since I fell ill. These routes have always been a little hard for me, but I knew that today.Arturo’s Special would be really hard if not impossible.

I’m just proud and full of gratitude.    This is a big deal. 

The route is a little complicated, a bit tricky. And since I have not been on any rock like this in almost a year it felt beyond me.  But as slow as a snail and wobbly here in places I topped out.  Yay!  

About the doctors. I really believe doctors these days have the best of intentions. They want us to thrive. But they don’t know how to help that happen. If I ask my primary  “how can I be strong enough to climb harder? How can I build strength and endurance? Is my heart OK for this?”  They really don’t know. I have gotten the answer many times “we don’t know, but you are teaching us.“  I think this may be a new thing in medicine and it has doctors baffled. I don’t think my mother was talking to her doctor about rock climbing or anything harder than bowling.

There is a whole new branch of medicine for women – – its catchphrase is “women are not small men.“ that’s wonderful because now doctors are doing sport medicine testing on women separately from men and their hormone and medication recommendations are specific to women.  Well I hope they also add some focus to “seniors” because we are not 45 years old (except those lurkers here who spy on us.  ) and we need our own thing.

Tell me how to get up Arturo’s faster and stronger.  Tell me how to improve my balance, add endurance, etc. It’s not going to be the same formula as it is for young athletes ie . run more, trudge up up hillsides, lift dead weights.  

There’s a lot of doctors who tell me

Son, ya better start slowin’ it down.

But there’s more old drunks than there are old doctors 

So I guess we better have another round.

                                         —Willie Nelson 

Bill Lundeenwrote:

There’s a lot of doctors who tell me

Son, ya better start slowin’ it down.

But there’s more old drunks than there are old doctors 

So I guess we better have another round.

                                         —Willie Nelson 

I knew where you were going with this one half a line in   😉

Well done. 

Lori Milaswrote:

Tell me how to get up Arturo’s faster and stronger.  Tell me how to improve my balance, add endurance, etc. It’s not going to be the same formula as it is for young athletes ie . run more, trudge up up hillsides, lift dead weights.  

I don't know that any of us here could give advice beyond what I presume Bob is already giving you?

And for general health and fitness, your own studies are way beyond anything I've ever looked into.

Finally got the Orange ‘nemesis’ at Urban Climb. I’ve been trying this for a few weeks as it felt do-able, and then I hurt my ribs on it. 

Gave it another go contrary to Pauline’s advice and got it!

https://youtube.com/shorts/ERTKaS7CU6U?si=OE5SHgRIb7deV_rj

What’s the vibe like there now you’ve snapped up Venezuela as your own? I guess the positive is you’ll maybe get cheaper gas now you have all that oil.

Carl, the vibe is we are horrified that the asshole in chief has started a fucking war to distract from the Epstein files debacle and the Jack Smith testimony about his other crimes.  Totally unconstitutional move that required the approval of Congress. The problem is that the GOP led Congress is chicken shit to do their jobs and the supreme Court is bought and paid for. 

Brad Youngwrote:

I don't know that any of us here could give advice beyond what I presume Bob is already giving you?

And for general health and fitness, your own studies are way beyond anything I've ever looked into.

Thank you Brad. I wasn’t asking “you” those questions.  Those were sample questions for my doctors, the well- meaning ones who can only recommend the standard vaccines and statins for aging.  

I’ve had several doctors tell me that whenever I have a scheduled office visit be sure to bring a climbing picture because that presents a very different picture from the standard one they have in their head.  

Went for a hike with my brother out to the remote New Hampshire cliff looking for new rocks.  Stopped in to check on my project, prime conditions for the top out!

Lori Milaswrote:

Thank you Brad. I wasn’t asking “you” those questions.  Those were sample questions for my doctors, the well- meaning ones who can only recommend the standard vaccines and statins for aging.  

I’ve had several doctors tell me that whenever I have a scheduled office visit be sure to bring a climbing picture because that presents a very different picture from the standard one they have in their head.  

Lori, While I'm guessing this response will annoy you, I think what Brad was suggesting, is that maybe these aren't appropriate questions to be asking your doctors---too specific and situation dependent. Basically, there isn't a 'one size fits all' type of response to such questions. Doctors advice is usually ( at least should be) based upon the results of scientifically conducted studies, and there are no such studies ( nor are there likely to be because of too many individual variables, not enough subjects, lack of control groups, etc) on this topic. Even doctors who have personal familiarity with climbing--and with the specific patient, will be very limited in what they could legitimately advise. I think that, while being cognizant of general information, we each need to cautiously find our own way.

Carl: The reactions so far are as expected, with, unfortunately, most Republican members of Congress being at least cautiously supportive of Trump's actions for now, with the exception of the America First isolationists such as Rand Paul ( right reaction, wrong reasons). The Democrats are almost in unanimous opposition. I expect things will change with some of tge former group, as we get increasingly drawn into a long-term commitment, physical opposition grows, as does our casualty count. The even bigger concern is what will an emboldened Trump, faced with very limited opposition within his own party, do next. Very scary.

Lori Milaswrote:

About the doctors. I really believe doctors these days have the best of intentions. They want us to thrive. But they don’t know how to help that happen. If I ask my primary  “how can I be strong enough to climb harder? How can I build strength and endurance? Is my heart OK for this?”  They really don’t know. I have gotten the answer many times “we don’t know, but you are teaching us.“  I think this may be a new thing in medicine and it has doctors baffled. I don’t think my mother was talking to her doctor about rock climbing or anything harder than bowling.

There is a whole new branch of medicine for women – – its catchphrase is “women are not small men.“ that’s wonderful because now doctors are doing sport medicine testing on women separately from men and their hormone and medication recommendations are specific to women.  Well I hope they also add some focus to “seniors” because we are not 45 years old (except those lurkers here who spy on us.  ) and we need our own thing.

Tell me how to get up Arturo’s faster and stronger.  Tell me how to improve my balance, add endurance, etc. It’s not going to be the same formula as it is for young athletes ie . run more, trudge up up hillsides, lift dead weights.  

There are doctors and doctors. A primary care physician in your part of the world will be an expert in dealing with chronic multi-pathology ill health in people who, sadly, have little intention of adopting healthier lifestyles. A 20 minute consultation is not going to overcome 60 years of societal conditioning so, mostly, they don't bother and you can hardly blame them. They will not be great on advising on exercise for people of any age. 

20 years ago you'd have been correct that exercise research was mostly done on young men* but this is changing. Before joining public health, I worked in a physiology department whose speciality was the aging research. Sample: "Muscle health may be informed by activity level rather than ageing process." We often tested master competitive cyclists (average age 75, but had muscles like many 35 year olds) and runners. 

Seniors - and we were testing folk into their 90s  - responded similarly to exercise as younger people with the same exercise capacity. Base fitness and strength are the important factors, not age. Seniors can do the same exercises - should do the same exercises - as younger folk if they have the same strength or fitness. Elderly people don't need to avoid certain exercises just because they are over sixty or whatever.

Do exercises that help you achieve your goals, that align with your values, and have low barriers to participation. Lifting dead weights is likely to be great for your climbing and healthy longevity (goals), but you are unlikely to stick to it if you don't see yourself as someone that lifts dead weights (values), or you don't have anywhere to lift weights (barrier). Don't worry about finding the perfect exercise: 'good enough' is best. Find something that challenges the strength of your big muscles in your arms and legs 3-4 times a week and gets you somewhat out of breath for 20-30 mins. most days. This might include climbing some of the time. A session or two with the right coach or personal trainer, right meaning someone that doesn't see you as an 'old lady', might be helpful if you are not confident at choosing exercises yourself. 

Bee and Oli, honorary members of the NAECO50** club, climbing a fierce 7b+ (5.12c) at Mula yesterday. 

*Exercise physiology research was done on exercise physiology students, who used to be mostly men and would volunteer for almost anything for a free lunch!  

**Could easily be in the NAECO60 club...

Lori. climbing and your desert wandering really does set you apart from the typical tv watching alcoholic nicotine infused couch potato retiree that the doctor is used to seeing.  Their perception of what to expect us to be able to accomplish with our health is skewed by the sheer number of obese unhealthy wrecks they deal with daily.  I actually did have one doctor accuse me of being fat and suggesting that I cut out all animal fats. He was correct. Not politically correct but spot on with the fact that I need to lose 25 lbs.  Every other doctor thinks I am in amazing shape simply because of the norm that they are experiencing in their daily grind.  So yes shocking them out of their drudgery might help them realize that you have different goals from the average consumer. 

A good reality shock is beneficial to some folks. In my 50s I worked for a construction boss who was an authoritarian at work. A great guy outside work but could be pretty toxic at work. In his mind I was an over the hill old guy  and not as fast and strong as the younger kids. He was only seeing dollar signs..  He also did not appreciate my skills and was often using me as a laborer.  I took him rock climbing and made a point at the end of the day to casually free solo up to  clean the anchor on the climb that had given him a good case of Elvis leg and spit him off multiple times on top rope.   I know that is a total dick move and would have gotten me failed on my guides exam but it had to be done and it did make a difference at work in how this guy perceived and treated me.