New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #40

Lori Milaswrote:

About the doctors. I really believe doctors these days have the best of intentions. They want us to thrive. But they don’t know how to help that happen. If I ask my primary  “how can I be strong enough to climb harder? How can I build strength and endurance? Is my heart OK for this?”  They really don’t know. I have gotten the answer many times “we don’t know, but you are teaching us.“  I think this may be a new thing in medicine and it has doctors baffled. I don’t think my mother was talking to her doctor about rock climbing or anything harder than bowling.

There is a whole new branch of medicine for women – – its catchphrase is “women are not small men.“ that’s wonderful because now doctors are doing sport medicine testing on women separately from men and their hormone and medication recommendations are specific to women.  Well I hope they also add some focus to “seniors” because we are not 45 years old (except those lurkers here who spy on us.  ) and we need our own thing.

Tell me how to get up Arturo’s faster and stronger.  Tell me how to improve my balance, add endurance, etc. It’s not going to be the same formula as it is for young athletes ie . run more, trudge up up hillsides, lift dead weights.  

There are doctors and doctors. A primary care physician in your part of the world will be an expert in dealing with chronic multi-pathology ill health in people who, sadly, have little intention of adopting healthier lifestyles. A 20 minute consultation is not going to overcome 60 years of societal conditioning so, mostly, they don't bother and you can hardly blame them. They will not be great on advising on exercise for people of any age. 

20 years ago you'd have been correct that exercise research was mostly done on young men* but this is changing. Before joining public health, I worked in a physiology department whose speciality was the aging research. Sample: "Muscle health may be informed by activity level rather than ageing process." We often tested master competitive cyclists (average age 75, but had muscles like many 35 year olds) and runners. 

Seniors - and we were testing folk into their 90s  - responded similarly to exercise as younger people with the same exercise capacity. Base fitness and strength are the important factors, not age. Seniors can do the same exercises - should do the same exercises - as younger folk if they have the same strength or fitness. Elderly people don't need to avoid certain exercises just because they are over sixty or whatever.

Do exercises that help you achieve your goals, that align with your values, and have low barriers to participation. Lifting dead weights is likely to be great for your climbing and healthy longevity (goals), but you are unlikely to stick to it if you don't see yourself as someone that lifts dead weights (values), or you don't have anywhere to lift weights (barrier). Don't worry about finding the perfect exercise: 'good enough' is best. Find something that challenges the strength of your big muscles in your arms and legs 3-4 times a week and gets you somewhat out of breath for 20-30 mins. most days. This might include climbing some of the time. A session or two with the right coach or personal trainer, right meaning someone that doesn't see you as an 'old lady', might be helpful if you are not confident at choosing exercises yourself. 

Bee and Oli, honorary members of the NAECO50** club, climbing a fierce 7b+ (5.12c) at Mula yesterday. 

*Exercise physiology research was done on exercise physiology students, who used to be mostly men and would volunteer for almost anything for a free lunch!  

**Could easily be in the NAECO60 club...

Lori. climbing and your desert wandering really does set you apart from the typical tv watching alcoholic nicotine infused couch potato retiree that the doctor is used to seeing.  Their perception of what to expect us to be able to accomplish with our health is skewed by the sheer number of obese unhealthy wrecks they deal with daily.  I actually did have one doctor accuse me of being fat and suggesting that I cut out all animal fats. He was correct. Not politically correct but spot on with the fact that I need to lose 25 lbs.  Every other doctor thinks I am in amazing shape simply because of the norm that they are experiencing in their daily grind.  So yes shocking them out of their drudgery might help them realize that you have different goals from the average consumer. 

A good reality shock is beneficial to some folks. In my 50s I worked for a construction boss who was an authoritarian at work. A great guy outside work but could be pretty toxic at work. In his mind I was an over the hill old guy  and not as fast and strong as the younger kids. He was only seeing dollar signs..  He also did not appreciate my skills and was often using me as a laborer.  I took him rock climbing and made a point at the end of the day to casually free solo up to  clean the anchor on the climb that had given him a good case of Elvis leg and spit him off multiple times on top rope.   I know that is a total dick move and would have gotten me failed on my guides exam but it had to be done and it did make a difference at work in how this guy perceived and treated me. 

Randywrote:

You should have told him that none of those falls were while rock climbing. Nearly all were in the home.

So, using his "logic," it is likely safer to live on the streets.

 I don't know about you people, but most times that I talk to any one in the health care industry I get the question "How many time have you fallen in the last ,,,?" I always think 'surely I don't count climbing'.  I don't count slips on loose scree either.

Victor Creazziwrote:

 I don't know about you people, but most times that I talk to any one in the health care industry I get the question "How many time have you fallen in the last ,,,?" I always think 'surely I don't count climbing'.  I don't count slips on loose scree either.

What concerns doctors working with 'geriatrics' ( which, as much as we hate to admit it, includes at least most of us) are falls to the ground ( or into objects) that can result in breaking our (generally) more fragile bones--most significantly our hips. Hopefully, when climbing, at all ages, but especially now, we are trying very hard to avoid leader falls that are likely to result in impacts ( obviously bouldering is a different story!!!), and top-rope falls are much less likely to result in any such contacts. So, I agree, that 'routine' climbing falls do not need to be 'reported' to MDs ( unless you find that you are increasingly 'coming off' unexpectedly).
Those 'falls on scree' ( or similar 'rough' terrain) though not uncommon, however, do entail the risks that concern the doctors, so even more important for us to do all that we can to avoid them. Over the last few years I have become increasingly dependent on my hiking poles ( from not using them at all, to almost constantly even on fairly mellow trails over the course of about a year), and felt them to be very beneficial. A couple of years ago I slipped ( pole-less) on a residual early spring patch of ice hidden by leaves ( New England!!!) and it was quite an impact---fortunately just a painful bruise, but lesson learned....!!!!

duncan, Nick, Victor, Alan...  wow. I SO appreciate your weighing in on this.  I know this is no one's favorite topic, but every now and then I hit it again.  You all are spot on.

Apparently senior aging is a potent topic for me, so I'm looking for ways to change the conversation.  I don't see doctors much, but it's a jolt every time I do.  So, this morning in my stack of mail was a monthly magazine from the biggest medical organization in Palm Srings/Palm Desert, Eisenhower Health.  Called "Healthy Living" I thought... now here's a publication that's going to offer some guidance.  

Inside cover:  Alzheimers Community Partner

#2 Article on Cardiovascular Disease

#4  One Man's Journey through Prostate Cancer

#5 Two Surgeries to Cervical Pain Relief

#7 New stents for women's hearts and non-obstructive heart attacks

#8 Innovative Valve Replacement

...ok, this list goes on.  Where's the diet, sleep, exercise and recovery coaching for older active seniors?  

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The problem is, we are also not 40.  Things DO go wrong, we break things, etc.  We may need interventional care more than a younger person. (But also, that much more attention to strength training, etc.)   So, a few years back when I was first climbing I thought I might need some balance training.  I sent my doctor a note, and within two days I was registered for this class!

It's not their fault.  I just think they need some louder voices describing what we really want.  

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On the other hand... I have a good friend who is a marathon runner, in his 70's, excellent health, but on a routine checkup it was discovered that his arteries were nearly 100% blocked.  He was SO healthy that his body had created tiny veins around his heart that were holding him over, but were slowly killing him.  He just returned from Mayo for a deep look at the situation and to decide upon some options.  We need that, too.  

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For me, all of this is so I can go “straight up” when I need to.  (What a glorious rock!) 

Lori Milaswrote:

On the other hand... I have a good friend who is
1) a marathon runner, in his 70's, excellent health
2) his arteries were nearly 100% blocked. 

This statement is apparently a BS.
Both #1 and #2 can't be true at the same time.
It seems that "100%" was a diagnostic error.

My son (who is MD) told me "Dad, keep doing whatever you are doing and just ignore these calcified plaques you see on your CT scans".

The events in Venezuela demonstrate that what was old is now new again. The narco-trafficking/WMD claims were every bit the universally-understood fig leaf for the underlying motivation here- oil. Venezuela’s govt is far from an innocent here, given the way they took over the oil industry a few decades ago. But this move was particularly audacious (the media‘s favorite word right now), and just like in Iraq, this administration is going to find that once you break it, you bought it…creating something functional down there is going to be a long, messy, complicated road… not the kind of follow-through effort the US is well known for.

If there’s any silver lining to this, it’s watching the heads of the MAGA Morons explode as their supposed isolationist figurehead becomes the neocon imperialist. Elections have consequences indeed.

Maduro’s “crime” is the same as Saddam Hussein”s - he was selling oil in something other than US dollars.  The American empire needs petrodollars in order to continue.  Trump has assured China that they can continue to buy Venezuelan oil, but I’m pretty sure that they will no longer be paying for it with Yuan.

No no no, we can't tolerate big moustaches.

Ward Smithwrote:

Maduro’s “crime” is the same as Saddam Hussein”s - he was selling oil in something other than US dollars.  The American empire needs petrodollars in order to continue.  Trump has assured China that they can continue to buy Venezuelan oil, but I’m pretty sure that they will no longer be paying for it with Yuan.

Don’t forget Muammar Gaddafi and his plan for a Gold Dinar. 

It’s also about control of the claimed largest known petroleum reserves. 

China already sought to control the production of Venezuelan oil. The CNPC which is totally controlled by the CCP was the main investor in Venezuela’s oil extraction industry. 

Also realize that for all of our faults America is leaps and bounds ahead of China in respect for human rights (see Tiananmen Square massacre with about 10,000 protestors slaughtered, Tibet, treatment of ethic Uyghurs, disregard for workers rights, lack of legitimate elections, disregard of sovereign waters and fishing treaties,  etc.). 

It’s unfortunate that global politics is always about the projection of power but to believe otherwise seems naive to me. 

And yeah, the narco bullshit is pablum for the masses. 

Lori, you're looking in the wrong place for diet, sleep, exercise advice. The NYT is a much better source. Not that I follow it -- mostly just read the suggested programs and cringe.   But the NYT actually does have a lot of good healthy living advice.

Carl Schneiderwrote:

Finally got the Orange ‘nemesis’ at Urban Climb. I’ve been trying this for a few weeks as it felt do-able, and then I hurt my ribs on it. 

Gave it another go contrary to Pauline’s advice and got it!

https://youtube.com/shorts/ERTKaS7CU6U?si=OE5SHgRIb7deV_rj

What’s the vibe like there now you’ve snapped up Venezuela as your own? I guess the positive is you’ll maybe get cheaper gas now you have all that oil.

Love the Curry jersey, but why in a climbing gym in Australia??

Alex Smith wrote:

Honestly, Gyms are key to staying in climbing shape. Look at Carl

Outside is still the draw, but weather, distances to travel, and safety make it more of a monthly outing for me and others I know. 

Before 2000s, if you wanted to climb, it was outside. Now, I see many over 50 and higher at the gym at 10am on a Tuesday. 

Gyms these days are awesome. Don't know if I'd still be climbing as much or at a challenging level if they werent what they are now 

Ha ha. Thing about gyms is you can get a LOT of volume in without much messing around with setups. My knees are bad so getting to crags can be difficult. I’m still trying for three to four days a week of climbing, indoors Tuesday And Thursday and outdoors Sat and Sun if it’s not raining or too hot. Temps moving up in to the 40s this week. 

Ship Twrote:

Love the Curry jersey, but why in a climbing gym in Australia??

I have no idea. I wanted a singlet, that matched my trousers, so bought it. I had to Google who Curry is/was.  I have NO idea about basketball at all. 

Carl Schneiderwrote:

I have no idea. I wanted a singlet, that matched my trousers, so bought it. I had to Google who Curry is/was.  I have NO idea about basketball at all. 

Curry is the greatest shooter ever in basketball history. He once had a teammate from Australia named Andrew Bogut who was the first overall pick in the NBA draft back in the day.

Bb Cc wrote:

I went to a Dr after a "fall", opening a low drawer. Found myself suddenly on my back. Evaluation, X-rays, Consultation: A lumbar (#5?) is out of place, looks twisted) with minor calcification. Could be from disease or injury, was it jumping into hay piles, or falling off tree top swinging, or poor trampoline technique, or sudden over the handle bar stops when misjudging clearances, or crashing bump skiing? Hard to say. I asked what I "can" do? He handed me a pamphlet covering good posture and back mechanics: said I can do whatever I can tolerate. I was 20. Since then I have been a resort skier/instructor, tele-skier, snowboarder, volunteer firefighter and EMT, whitewater raft guide, motorcycle rider, odd tree and building climber, construction laborer, lumber yard Summer worker, traveler, hiker, skydiver, father (showing kids how to...) and now climber (9 years, gym, trad, lead & follow), 15-20 mile day hiker, and SAR. Guess my toleration is high. Favorite Dr visit ever.

Go forward and "do what you can tolerate". A good Dr has no more ability to keep you young than help you "age well".

I am 63. See you in the mountains...

Same.

I’ve known my doctor since my 20s. He tells me to lose weight, hike (not walks), climbing is good (he remembers me from my youth). He then made some wing suit suggestions.

Honestly, I think he’s trying to get rid of me so he can hit on his 20 something nurses without me blurting out something to the effect of “Wow, we’ve known each other for 40 years”, then I “correct” it to “30”, erm “20”? More than 10? 

Ship Twrote:

Curry is the greatest shooter ever in basketball history. He once had a teammate from Australia named Andrew Bogut who was the first overall pick in the NBA draft back in the day.

Bogut was huge at the U of U (retired his jersey).  I remember him well.

Kinda funny...

Also...

VanHorn, Miller, Bogut and the fat porn loving coach at the U. Those were the days!

The differences now compared to then.

Iraq - Congress and the UN approved action. Many believed the lies about WMD.

Panama - Noriega was a drug runner, far more than was intended by the US in his informant role. And Panama actually started the war by firing on troops who had long been stationed in the canal zone.

Venezuela - NO Approval by Congress.   And there was no significant evidence presented that Maduro is a significant drug runner to the USA.

Panama was a distraction from Bushes failed economy.  Venezuela is a distraction from the Epstein files and other criminal activity.. Lots of other criminal activity.