New and experienced climbers over 50 #36

I thought Memorial Day might be about remembering those who have fought, been damaged or died for the country, but apparently it’s about remembering those who you don’t like and ranting about them.

Such a heart warming message.

I have a day off to take my grandson to the cardiologist so I’ll take the opportunity to go bouldering in the gym in town today. It’s finally rained here.  

Nah, he couldn't have said that. It must have been The Onion. 
Carl, I hope your grandson's okay.

Heres a bunch of old gunks photos.

Gunks in the ‘80s and late 70’s

Excellent pictures!!!! The Gunks are definitely a photogenic place, and the personalities also help make the place so special---the climbing ain't so bad either!!!!

Buck Rogerswrote:

Cannot wait to go back on Wednesday when I scheduled a day of leave to climb there again!

Thanks so much Dragons for such a great day climbing!

Same here, Buck, great day! Hoping for more fun on Wednesday!

looks like an amazeing time. If I lived closer I would visit the gunks. I am pretty averse to being that close to cities...  like my choss piles in the woods that no one knows about.  It was a memorable time for me when I spent several weeks there for a few springs in a row in the early 80's  Carl. Hope your grandson is ok. 

John Gillwrote:

Gabe, your Father was an amazing scholar. My condolences for his passage. (we were both born in 1937)

John

Thank you John. Here's another excellent obit from The Times.

Today, finally after all the rain, the weather cooperated and we had a nice day, despite crowds, at Main Cliff. Highlights of the day for me were 1 - Watching my daughter do a great job on a longish climb - first time she decided to go to the top. There's a killer view from the top of her climb, too, and she really enjoyed it. And 2 - I got on a new (for me) 11+ at Main Cliff called Mitosis.  Almost flashed it. Got it on the third try.

And Carl, I too hope your grandson is okay. 

GO

Lori Milaswrote:

I’m starting to understand the grades on MP.  One week ago this route was 5.10b/c.  Now it is 5.10b.  Wonder who recently climbed it… I thought I was the only one.  I don’t think I’m qualified to vote on the grade but for sure it’s the hardest thing I’ve ever climbed.  (Changed my mind and voted)

——

Lori,

 You are right you are not qualified to opine on difficulty grades on mountain project. Opinions should be based upon  “a lead experience”  not a top rope. When unqualified people opine as to the difficulty of routes on mountain project it tends to skew the rating to be more difficult that the climb may actually be. 

You have, on a few occasions, talked of committing to a move, or your lack of being able to do so, to me personally unless you are on the sharp end of the rope anything you may be perceiving as commitment is an illusion. Commitment involves consequences, the only consequence you are risking on a top rope is your disappointment that you can not crank as hard as you thought you could. Disappointing yes, but hardly life threatening.

Just the ranting of an old dude who holds himself (and thereby others as well) to a high standard.  >^..^<

oldfattradguuy kkwrote:

Heres a bunch of old gunks photos.

Gunks in the ‘80s and late 70’s

Great shots, thanks for sharing!  Some of those it's hard to believe were taken before the existence of drones! 

GO

Brad Youngwrote:

OK, have at it. We'll wait right here ;)

I hate to be a tease, but after some thought, I can't post that stuff here. The level of social/political incorrectness of Too Strong Dave's antics was off the charts. He could pull that stuff off and it was gut wrenching funny, but if I wrote it up here I'd get banned. Some of the ways he took advantage of Hidetaka Suzuki's use of the English language were simply unreal. 

I'll relate one story that's not funny, but iconic of the times.

I was hanging out in Hidden Valley Campground with Hidetaka, doing nothing. We were just sitting in his red van entertaining ourselves watching people. Too Strong Dave came running up to us with the look of a man possessed. He started raving about some great new route in the Hall of Horrors, and insisted that we go over and do it right away. He piled in the van and we motored on over to have a look at this "Jane's Addiction." As we drove over it became clear that he'd just done it earlier that day. When we got there all but the first draw were still on it. Apparently whoever he was climbing with couldn't pull the big move after the first bolt.

Dave threw down his rope bag and tied in. Apparently he was going first. I belayed, and payed close attention to the beta. Dave topped out, I pulled the rope and tied in. I was nervous about the big move after the first bolt, but I actually overshot it a little and stuck it. The rest of the short pitch was right up my alley and before I knew it I was untying on top. 

Back at the base, I could see the wheels turning in Hidetaka's head. If these two clowns can make easy work of this thing...  As I was setting up to put him on belay he looked at me and said, in his thick Japanese accent, "Don't worry Kris, I think I free solo." He cleaned the draws.

Kristian Solemwrote:

I hate to be a tease, but after some thought, I can't post that stuff here. The level of social/political incorrectness of Too Strong Dave's antics was off the charts. He could pull that stuff off and it was gut wrenching funny, but if I wrote it up here I'd get banned. Some of the ways he took advantage of Hidetaka Suzuki's use of the English language were simply unreal. 

I'll relate one story that's not funny, but iconic of the times.

I was hanging out in Hidden Valley Campground with Hidetaka, doing nothing. We were just sitting in his red van entertaining ourselves watching people. Too Strong Dave came running up to us with the look of a man possessed. He started raving about some great new route in the Hall of Horrors, and insisted that we go over and do it right away. He piled in the van and we motored on over to have a look at this "Jane's Addiction." As we drove over it became clear that he'd just done it earlier that day. When we got there all but the first draw were still on it. Apparently whoever he was climbing with couldn't pull the big move after the first bolt.

Dave threw down his rope bag and tied in. Apparently he was going first. I belayed, and payed close attention to the beta. Dave topped out, I pulled the rope and tied in. I was nervous about the big move after the first bolt, but I actually overshot it a little and stuck it. The rest of the short pitch was right up my alley and before I knew it I was untying on top. 

Back at the base, I could see the wheels turning in Hidetaka's head. If these two clowns can make easy work of this thing...  As I was setting up to put him on belay he looked at me and said, in his thick Japanese accent, "Don't worry Kris, I think I free solo." He cleaned the draws.

OK, I got an out loud laugh from your first sentence (thank you).

And we got a great story. Having tried to lead Jane's Addiction and failed? Damn!

wendy weisswrote:

Nah, he couldn't have said that. It must have been The Onion.
Carl, I hope your grandson's okay.

Thank you. Bailey has heart problems from chemo from bone cancer as a four year old. He’s now almost 18. :-)

Didn’t even end up climbing the appt went too late.

Cool story Kristian. 

GabeOwrote:

Thank you John. Here's another excellent obit from The Times.

Today, finally after all the rain, the weather cooperated and we had a nice day, despite crowds, at Main Cliff. Highlights of the day for me were 1 - Watching my daughter do a great job on a longish climb - first time she decided to go to the top. There's a killer view from the top of her climb, too, and she really enjoyed it. And 2 - I got on a new (for me) 11+ at Main Cliff called Mitosis.  Almost flashed it. Got it on the third try.

And Carl, I too hope your grandson is okay. 

GO

I'm sorry for you loss Gabe. Your father had a remarkable life. 

Nice work on Mitosis. I've only climbed at Rumney once but it's one of those places I would love to go back to sometime. 

fossilwrote:

Lori,

 You are right you are not qualified to opine on difficulty grades on mountain project. Opinions should be based upon  “a lead experience”  not a top rope. When unqualified people opine as to the difficulty of routes on mountain project it tends to skew the rating to be more difficult that the climb may actually be. 

You have, on a few occasions, talked of committing to a move, or your lack of being able to do so, to me personally unless you are on the sharp end of the rope anything you may be perceiving as commitment is an illusion. Commitment involves consequences, the only consequence you are risking on a top rope is your disappointment that you can not crank as hard as you thought you could. Disappointing yes, but hardly life threatening.

Just the ranting of an old dude who holds himself (and thereby others as well) to a high standard.  >^..^<

I don’t know if I have the energy this morning to rebut what you have said, but it sounds insulting. I have only reviewed one other route in six years on MP.  But I don’t know if you have to lead a route in order to assess its difficulty. I can think of many routes that were top roped by incredible athletes, and I would submit that they were more than qualified to estimate its degree of difficulty.

For instance, Peter Croft climbing Solid Gold.  (that one just came to mind after reading your post.) if Peter decreed that it was a.5.10b, I would take that to the bank.

early on in this thread, we thrashed out the pros and cons of choosing to lead, “at a certain age”, and particularly in Joshua Tree. I finally came to the hard and fast decision that I was not going to begin leading at this stage of my life—although I know I could. I’d rather spend that same time giving it all to climbing more and harder routes—acquiring technique and strength to do so. But I will say after spending close to six years climbing everything I possibly can, I’m going to stand up for some respect. Top roping is not chump change.

But even last night as we were wrapping it up at turtle rock I almost asked Bob “am I going to regret that I didn’t lead some of these routes?”  The painful answer is no, unless I let my ego get in the way.  Other than the fact that I am not willing to risk death or broken bones this late in the game – – I think a top roped climb is still a hard climb and not for sissies.  And I do think, having worked on torturers apprentice now six times – – that’s six long days on that particular route – – I have an idea of its difficulty.  And I have plenty to compare it to. 

Come to think of it though, is there any one standard? A 5.9 climber might find any route extremely difficult compared to a 5.12 climber.  So unless all those who weigh in on quality and grade of a route are exactly the same, the perspectives will all be different.

—

Kris… I think Mayville was one of the first people I saw in Joshua Tree, who caught my eye. Would he be the guy who casually stood at the base of intersection rock smoking a cigarette, and then sauntered up a route on the right side that had an overhang – – cannot think of the name of the route right now– – but I do remember him throwing a hand over the ledge and just sort of hoisting himself up and then finishing the route as though it were nothing.  He had some swag.  That guy?

Speaking of stemming problems look at this beautiful weasel’s (ermine phase) technique. And free solo to boot. 

Carl Schneiderwrote:

Thank you. Bailey has heart problems from chemo from bone cancer as a four year old. He’s now almost 18. :-)

Didn’t even end up climbing the appt went too late.

God, what a tough kid he must be. Hope that he heals up quickly and gets back to being a "young punk" kiddo getting after it with his friends soon!

And you were right where you needed to be, with your grandson.  In the end, that's the stuff that matters way more than another day at the crag, imo.

Lori Milaswrote:

I don’t know if I have the energy this morning to rebut what you have said, but it sounds insulting. I have only reviewed one other route in six years on MP.  But I don’t know if you have to lead a route in order to assess its difficulty. I can think of many routes that were top roped by incredible athletes, and I would submit that they were more than qualified to estimate its degree of difficulty.

Well fossil is correct that it's usually harder and more committing to lead than to follow. But not always. Routes with significant traverses can be more dangerous for the second. But that's unusual. I disagree that it's impossible to judge the difficulty of a route when seconding it though. Experienced climbers can usually come reasonably close as long as the route is within their limits. If near your limit or harder then yeah it's hard to judge it accurately. 

And then of course there are differences in height, arm length, hand size etc that all make precise grading for anyone a subjective experience so best not to get too hung up on exact grades.

I personally don't give a crap if I spend a day following,  TRing, leading or even bouldering,  just getting out and doing something is all that matters. The whole discussion about not grading a climb until you've led it is something I used to think in my 20s wholeheartedly,  now I  realize how testosterone and ego driven that idea was. I do think you need to have a solid and clean ascent before grading anything,  there is so much beta to miss sometimes. 

I've been hearing about farmers and ranchers losing their migrant workforces all over the country,  it seems many are hoping the government bails them out. I wonder what my grocery bills are going to look like in a few months.  Time to double the garden I think.  I'm still considering myself lucky though,  at least I don't have Putin or Netanyahu bombing my home. So many campaign promises in the trash can its amazing. 

Trump's recent comments ("Something has happened to him (Putin). He has gone absolutely CRAZY!") immediately struck me as, well no shit, sherlock. Then after thinking about it further, it occurred to me to be a cynical, calculated political strategy- he has manipulated populist opinions regarding involvement outside of the US much to his advantage, when in fact, if public opinion started shifting in favor of more Ukraine involvement, he wants to position himself such that he can be the one that pushed back against Putin first to make his MAGA-ites happy. This seems to be a perfectly plausible rationale for his recent comments- he has little interest in what actually happens in other countries, but has great interest in how he looks in his role.

apogeewrote:

Trump's recent comments ("Something has happened to him (Putin). He has gone absolutely CRAZY!") immediately struck me as, well no shit, sherlock. Then after thinking about it further, it occurred to me to be a cynical, calculated political strategy- he has manipulated populist opinions regarding involvement outside of the US much to his advantage, when in fact, if public opinion started shifting in favor of more Ukraine involvement, he wants to position himself such that he can be the one that pushed back against Putin first to make his MAGA-ites happy. This seems to be a perfectly plausible rationale for his recent comments- he has little interest in what actually happens in other countries, but has great interest in how he looks in his role.

That sounds about right plus I believe he doesn't care much about what happens in this country besides his own wealth.