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New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #35

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 470

I am all about doing the best you can to help the earth but coming from the north east I have very little sympathy for lichen.. moss is a bit different. If it requires too much moss removal then its most likely going to be wet most of the time anyways... 

WF WF51 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2020 · Points: 0
Emil Briggs wrote:

It's like there is a blind spot. Reminds me of someone I know who brought up a quote from Thomas Jefferson to the effect that people should not let political disagreements come between them. I asked him how that worked with Jeffersons slaves but never got a clear answer.

Jefferson said of slavery, " . . . as it is, we have the wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go. Justice is in one scale, and self-preservation in the other." 

Emil Briggs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 140
WF WF51 wrote:

Jefferson said of slavery, " . . . as it is, we have the wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go. Justice is in one scale, and self-preservation in the other." 

His actions in life certainly contradicted the words he's most famous for.

""We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"

But even ignoring slavery it's clear that he and the other founders actually subscribed to the philosophy from Animal Farm

"All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others"

with white male landowners being the most equal.

apogee · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 0

Looking at the distant past through a lens of current values and standards always results in a distorted view.

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,375
bryans wrote:

I guess it's like this. I started climbing in 1999, and from then on I have (to my knowledge, and I have probed) only climbed with people who are at the least not republicans. Many would say they are libertarian or not really political, but nobody was out and out republican. Since 2016 I definitely haven't climbed with anyone who suppports trump. I guess I came to equate climbers with non-republicans, because the modern republican party's motivating principle is to move money to rich people, away from poor people. In large part, they do this by eliminating regulations on extractive industries like gas, oil, logging, deep sea mining, you name it. 

My life experience therefore led me to conclude that the cognitive dissonance required to vote republican, yet love nature and climbing, was too great. And in my personal life, that's what I observed: climbers don't vote republican. But this thread, over the years, has shown me there are lots of what I will call "freeloaders" who both like to climb and also don't give a shit about nature and/or the future. Or else they wouldn't vote for the anti-environment and anti-science party (I could bullet point hundreds of examples, starting with efforts to gut the EPA and de-fund the park system) 

I guess people like guy keese and RKM really do get to have it all - they can climb all they want, and still vote for the party that is destroying the environment because hey, not their problem. This thread has been sobering. And I can't stress enough how much I miss moderate republicans like we had in the 80s and 90s before the party lost its way and hopped on trump's back. I wouldn't  be writing any of this if the party hadn't lost its bearings completely.

Hey, thanks for the explanation! This considerably changes how I would think of you ...if that mattered to me, and it doesn't.

My short reply?

You need to get out more.

I live in the blue bit of a decidely red state, but I don't think it's much to do with red or blue. Idaho's entire history, pre statehood even, has been not real keen on ANY law at all. People came here to escape politics, and it's still not nearly as partisan as assumed, and, that partisanship tends much more to be rural vs Boise. The leave me alone, me n my neighbors will take care of ourselves pioneer stock vs the moved here from somewhere else and think laws should exist for every conceivable thing. Your business is my business 

So? 

Yes, dear, there are oodles of "Republicans" out there. Remember, in states like mine? The love the land people are usually deeply, deeply, attached to the land, it is an intimate part of our lives here. Come climb at COR, and you will be beholden to the ranchers who graze the BLM permits.....which helps the reserve exist. It also gave us a home grown manager for COR. Who climbs, and who's boy is also learning climbing.

There are people besides climbers who recreate, and, at the least, we owe at least a nod of thanks to those who buy fishing licenses, hunting tags, duck stamps, support pheasants unlimited, etc. Climbers generally pay between diddly and squat to actually support the LAND itself that they play in and on.

So? Me?

Yeah, I'm a climber. I climb with a few known Republicans, but it's not like I know, lol!

Voting? Omg. Stay clear of me, charming friend.

I vote however I damn well please. Republicans, Democrats, yes even a Libertarian now and then, and, I think I voted for Constitution party dude last election? Because, why not? Never heard of them, they got my vote, and their mom's, but hey, more choice would be good.

My only rule? If you actually show up on my front porch, in person, you got my vote. My state legislators for decades fit that category. Plus, one actual nut case. So yeah, that vote was a throwaway. But, its a vote for real people, on the real person to person level. That is where it really matters, anyway, imo. Local is where much gets sorted out.

Then, being a proper Idahoan?

We consider all laws advisory. 

 

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,375

Oh yay, good news!

They backed off dumping funding to the Women's Health Initiative!

Are they using AI to make these decisions?? Not even real people? On again off again an awful lot lately. Not what I'd expect from the POTUS, forget the political party. 

Anyway, if anyone is unfamiliar, the Women's Health Initiative has been tracking a biggish pool of women for decades now. It's yielded a lot of important stuff, and, as these women continue to age, it is very much pertinent to our Over 50 thread. Dunno how many of them would qualify, but likely a hefty percentage. 

Bernie Sanders came to Boise recently. Filled the 12,500 seat venue here. I hunted it up online, just cuz. Real people, live speeches, ya know? Being the state capitol, there's been a hefty number of marches, too. But, I think people are just hitting a level of fatigue that will cause many to just opt out entirely. 

But? Years ago, when all the big public lands rallies happened? Keep public lands public? Boise had one of the largest in the country. It was populated by all the libs you'd expect....

Plus all those conservatives I listed in my reply to Bryans. From 8 years ago:

And, my favorite pic from City. 

That's the direction we need to go, imo. All those many things we ALL care about. 

Start talking. "We the People" means all the people, now. And lots of people have fought for that, me included.

Helen

GabeO · · Boston, MA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 302

Brians, I agree with OLH, you spout off a lot about people you don't know. I'm certainly left of center, but i know some hard right people who care and do a lot more for the land than some hard left people i know. Your broad brush strokes do more to discredit you than they do to admonish those you disagree with. 

Cheers, 

GO

Randy · · Lassitude 33 · Joined Jan 2002 · Points: 1,279

The phrase "death to the king" was a rallying cry used by the Founding Fathers against King George III, symbolizing their rejection of monarchy and their desire for a republic. The Declaration of Independence, a key document of the revolution, outlined their grievances against the king and declared the colonies' independence from British rule. 

Rejection of Monarchy: The Founding Fathers, such as John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, were staunchly anti-monarchists. They believed in the principles of self-governance and popular sovereignty, directly contradicting the idea of a king holding absolute power. 

Old lady H · · Boise, ID · Joined Aug 2015 · Points: 1,375
bryans wrote:

I guess people like guy keese and RKM really do get to have it all - they can climb all they want, and still vote for the party that is destroying the environment because hey, not their problem. This thread has been sobering. And I can't stress enough how much I miss moderate republicans like we had in the 80s and 90s before the party lost its way and hopped on trump's back. I wouldn't  be writing any of this if the party hadn't lost its bearings completely.

Hey, then there's this. So, yes, Guy and Kim and Bryans and OLH can vote for any one we want. And, I expect, every one of us would defend the other's right to do so.

Okay, so you object to who they voted for, fine. But we have no way of knowing the why of that vote. Especially if we prefer to make assumptions....rather then conversations.

Betcha, and now I'm merely guessing, but, betcha you aren't the only one who misses moderates, of any stripe. Making people The Other does that. Middle ground is where we all make better things happen, or at the very least, lives where we can just muddle along.

My husband voted for Obama, first term.

He also voted for Trump, first term.

For exactly the same primary reason.

How could that be?

Change. And he wasn't the only one who felt this way. Both were seen as outside the main stream, someone new, something....hopeful. Many were tired of how things were going, and had been for a long time.

Me too. Even more tired now 

But, see, I'm an incurable optimist, I nonetheless look forward.

I'm planting my garden this weekend.

H.

https://youtu.be/MPrPtDoaB3s?feature=shared

Edit to add, for Kristian, Idaho's submarine base!

https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Home/Warfare-Centers/NSWC-Carderock/Who-We-Are/Bayview-Idaho/

Kristian Solem · · Monrovia, CA · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 1,070
Bb Cc wrote:

Potemkin by Simon Sebag Montefiore is a very interesting read for the regions including Ukraine.

Awesome tip. Thanks, I looked this up and it's right up my alley. 

Bb Cc · · California · Joined May 2020 · Points: 20

Navy Guns in Idaho:   google.com/search?q=wwii+na…;ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

Carl Schneider · · Mount Torrens, South Australia · Joined Dec 2017 · Points: 0
Lori Milas wrote:

I’ve received a lot of feedback over the last few days, and this is certainly not my call. Maybe the OP could do some modest moderating when things get nasty?  I really understand those who have come here to escape politics. They are already oversaturated with the constant news. They’d like to talk about Climbing. And there are those who say yeah but this is different. This is a completely novel situation that requires discussion.

I did drop a note to a MP moderator to ask if there was some way to link a sub thread to this main one. I haven’t received a response yet, but that would just be a programming issue.

I don't feel there's an issue myself. If someone talks about politics (or any other non-climbing related topic) and others don't respond) the subject dies. Conversely, if others do respond it doesn't die. So if there's too much politics here it's because some of us might find it interesting, at times.

I like the diversity of topics here. If we sort of 'ban' talk of politics, do we also ban all non-climbing related topics talked about there (and there are a LOT of them)?

It's very very rare in my experience to find disrespectful people here, although I admit to not reading all of all the posts, and also not always understanding American lingo.

Carl Schneider · · Mount Torrens, South Australia · Joined Dec 2017 · Points: 0
bryans wrote:

I guess people like guy keese and RKM really do get to have it all - they can climb all they want, and still vote for the party that is destroying the environment because hey, not their problem. 

The 'hey, not their problem' comment is mean spirited. Please don't be mean spirited here. Cheers.

Jay Goodwin · · OR-NV-CA · Joined May 2016 · Points: 13

Bryans, thanks for reply. I was climbing all day with an old Yosemite friend so my reply is late to our discussion. Where I was coming from is summed up by Nick more or less: if there is a whole lot of moss/vegetation that has to be removed, the route is probably consigned to the dust bin of history - the moss and veg will win in the end most likely. So in my two cents worth, not worth developing (and I spent 5 years in Corvallis so not unfamiliar with shortage of good clean rock). Also from my perspective, I am playing and a transient visitor to our climbing areas, but the cliffs are home to a flora and fauna that live there. I try to avoid harming them, whether doing other's climbs or putting up routes myself.

Cheers 

Emil Briggs · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2013 · Points: 140
apogee wrote:

Looking at the distant past through a lens of current values and standards always results in a distorted view.

Actions inconsistent with your own self professed values isn't a distortion based on current values and standards. And by that measure Jefferson fell short.

On the other hand if you're referring to whom the phrase "All men are created equal" applied then sure our founding fathers came closer at that time to living up to it than the rest of the world. They still didn't live up to the words themselves. Much of American history has been a struggle between those who want to expand who the phrase applies to and those who want to restrict it. And that's still the case today.

Alan Rubin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 10
Old lady H wrote:

Hey, then there's this. So, yes, Guy and Kim and Bryans and OLH can vote for any one we want. And, I expect, every one of us would defend the other's right to do so.

Okay, so you object to who they voted for, fine. But we have no way of knowing the why of that vote. Especially if we prefer to make assumptions....rather then conversations.

Betcha, and now I'm merely guessing, but, betcha you aren't the only one who misses moderates, of any stripe. Making people The Other does that. Middle ground is where we all make better things happen, or at the very least, lives where we can just muddle along.

My husband voted for Obama, first term.

He also voted for Trump, first term.

For exactly the same primary reason.

How could that be?

Change. And he wasn't the only one who felt this way. Both were seen as outside the main stream, someone new, something....hopeful. Many were tired of how things were going, and had been for a long time.

Me too. Even more tired now 

But, see, I'm an incurable optimist, I nonetheless look forward.

I'm planting my garden this weekend.

H.

https://youtu.be/MPrPtDoaB3s?feature=shared

Edit to add, for Kristian, Idaho's submarine base!

https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Home/Warfare-Centers/NSWC-Carderock/Who-We-Are/Bayview-Idaho/

Helen, just remember that Hitler was initially voted into power in a democratic election, same for other dictators-to-be, Orban in Hungary is just one current example. And many who are aware of the circumstances of such 'elections' and what has followed, see many very troubling parallels in our current situation. So, it is a good bit more complicated that simply having a conversation and moving on. I do respect many of those who express support for Trump on here for their climbing and other life accomplishments, and understand that they have reasons for their political beliefs, but the results of their votes are extremely threatening to many things, including our democratic system and protecting the places where we practice our mutual 'recreational activity' , which I consider to be fundamental.

Lori Milas · · Joshua Tree, CA · Joined Apr 2017 · Points: 240

I got back on my route yesterday. I wasn’t sure if I wanted to revisit it just yet because it is so hard, and I got a bum knee. I got a little hit of confidence from Climbing more moderate routes over the last few weeks, but this one is really close to my heart. And in Joshua Tree, you really have to go with the weather. I have learned to grab an opportunity when the weather is right and yesterday it was right.

I continue to think about protein, hydration and sleep. Nutrition of course is a lot more than just protein, but requires getting enough of everything – – and I could maybe also benefit from some herbs like rhodiola. (Anyone?) This is an ongoing experiment.  With the new route I am focused on endurance because I think my challenge is more about being able to last.  After one and a half laps I was done. My WHOOP score was 20. I didn’t sleep well last night and everything is sore.  So how do you build endurance so you can sustain hard effort?  


Bob has talked about a crack circuit, meaning focusing on the crack routes in Joshua Tree to become a proficient crack climber. Well, I’m thinking maybe a stemming circuit would be cool because this is awkward as hell and it’s taking some time to get all my body parts coordinated. Seriously! And I do really think this beautiful rock is worth it.   

GabeO · · Boston, MA · Joined May 2006 · Points: 302
apogee wrote:

Looking at the distant past through a lens of current values and standards always results in a distorted view.

This is true but it's clear by Jefferson's writings that he was aware of the fundamental immorality of slavery, even as it was both widely accepted, and required for his way of life. He struggled with this mightily, and in his letters to Adams, he came to different conclusions at different times. 

This is not to say that it is fair to judge him by today's standards in regards to slavery, race relations, and subjugation. More to say that his vision exceeded the times of his day more than that of his contemporaries, but he was still rooted in his time, as are we all. That said, I personally believe that he was one of those people who was driven by his own sense of personal shame to strive extra hard to use his considerable talents to make the world a better place. That is an admirable choice to make in any time period, and speaks well of his character. 

GO

apogee · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 0

There is no reasonable person in modern, western society that would find slavery to be an acceptable practice. Throughout history, and in each of our lives, there have been people who presented paradoxes of values in the way they lived their lives- parts of which were amazing, valuable traits that were/are in the interests of a greater humanity, some that are not. All we can do in our lives, at this moment, is promote the positive values, and move away from the negative ones.

dragons · · New Paltz, NY · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 872

We had a visit from Tim this week. He did most of the leading, which is nice for Bill and me, since we don't climb very hard. But I swapped leads with Tim on a couple of routes. Hence, I was using his rack. It slowed me down a tad, but it worked out better than I feared. I love swapping leads, but it can be tough to find people who are interested in doing that on the relatively low 5.easy routes.

Tim leading Ribs (5.4)


Tim leading Frog's Head (5.6)


I've met good climbing partners from this thread. Tim is one of the best! Thanks for the good times, man!

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