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Textbook Bad GriGri belay puts comp climber in hospital

Alexander G · · Gunkie · Joined Apr 2024 · Points: 12
Bb Cc wrote:

I have tried belaying with a Neox a friend has, was able to short rope quite effectively due to years of hurriedly feeding 1/2-arm-of- slack for high clips.

Distressing to watch the fall.

agreed after using the neox a dozen times. it is very possible to short rope really any abrupt motion, if theres little to no slack in the system and the climber goes for a high clip and yanks rope up quickly / desperately - YUP it locks right up. tested this a bunch in the last few months.

Its 1000% possible to short rope, even with the wheel in a neox

Peter Beal · · Boulder Colorado · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 1,825

Re: Hard is Easy video, and yeah I know it's YouTube, but there are so many comments saying it's somehow the climber's fault that I wonder if some weird instruction thing is going on here in gyms where saying "falling" is normalized as a safety requirement or something like it. I really appreciate seeing the earlier comments in this thread emphasizing the belayer's absolute no-exceptions duty to safeguard the climber at all times and am puzzled by some of the comments here that seem to push back against this. While there are situations where climber negligence almost ensures a bad fall, the classic being falling while clipping with an armload of slack close to the ground, there remains the absolute commandment that the belayer never lets go of the rope or lets it slide during a fall. This is fundamental and not open to negotiation.

Finally regarding the GriGri, I have been using one for over 30 years and have definitely come around to the ATC method. I still have a GriGri 1 which makes feeding smoother but even GriGri 2s work fine this way with a reasonable diameter newer rope. I am not sold on the Neox yet and I am sure it will be reworked by Petzl in a year or two given the overall lack of usage of the Neox that I am seeing in my home gym. Personally I think that Petzl should revisit the 2 and update it to be more like the 1 to reflect new paradigms in belaying where the auto-lock feature is primarily a back-up to conventional belaying technique, not a replacement for it.

Gregg Vigliotti · · Bronx, NY · Joined Aug 2022 · Points: 0

Absolutely the belayers fault but this does ( in no means do I blame the climber) remind everyone to communicate between climber and belayer. I’ve been climbing with the same people for close to 20 years and I still look down and say, “take” when I’m at the top and make sure my belayer heard. Same with sport outside and same with multi pitch routes, when I’m off belay and have my follower on belay.  I don’t have to because my friends are watching me but it’s how I was taught and it’s worked so far. Awful video to see.  I hope the climber is healing and can get back at it. 

Paul L · · Portland, OR · Joined Dec 2016 · Points: 341

Not as entirely egregious as the original post, and no accident as a result, but some pretty poor belaying on the first few bolts of this send from Janja Garnbret. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DG6C2QPs0R6/?igsh=OWdodGwwNWQ3ZTU5

Is it just complacency at the higher levels that can allow this? I've seen clips of Ondra using questionable belay technique, Honnold got dropped, and I'm sure there's more... 

M M · · Maine · Joined Oct 2020 · Points: 2
Paul L wrote:

Not as entirely egregious as the original post, and no accident as a result, but some pretty poor belaying on the first few bolts of this send from Janja Garnbret. 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DG6C2QPs0R6/?igsh=OWdodGwwNWQ3ZTU5

Is it just complacency at the higher levels that can allow this? I've seen clips of Ondra using questionable belay technique, Honnold got dropped, and I'm sure there's more... 

I'd take this technique over most folks who keep their hand/thumb in fast feed position 100% of the time. 

amarius · · Nowhere, OK · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 20
M M wrote:

I'd take this technique over most folks who keep their hand/thumb in fast feed position 100% of the time. 

Belayer appears to be right handed - mostly he is feeding the rope using left hand, combination of ATC style and "almost tunnel" - lets go of the rope with his right hand to remove slack.
The outrageous part - he puts his left hand over GG overriding the cam, and then he yards out  a couple of armfuls with his right. I would consider this way worse than the original incident video - Janja is so close to the ground that there is not enough time to react even though she has belayer's complete attention.

M M · · Maine · Joined Oct 2020 · Points: 2
amarius wrote:

Belayer appears to be right handed - mostly he is feeding the rope using left hand, combination of ATC style and "almost tunnel" - lets go of the rope with his right hand to remove slack.
The outrageous part - he puts his left hand over GG overriding the cam, and then he yards out  a couple of armfuls with his right. I would consider this way worse than the original incident video - Janja is so close to the ground that there is not enough time to react even though she has belayer's complete attention.

I missed that part, all I saw was the "almost tunnel" over and over and over. 

Henry Lester · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2003 · Points: 15
Eric Engberg wrote:

I hate it when I'm trying to lower someone and they grab the rope like that.  With no weight on the rope it's awkward to give out slack

The point about what I said is not about (you) the belayer who, as in the situation under discussion, was not belaying properly. After you have seen someone deck from 60 feet up, you think of ways to protect yourself.

Henry Lester · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2003 · Points: 15
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:

The climber was a kid. The adult bears the responsibility of the whole situation.

What is it about 100% that you don't understand? I just added a remedy that readers can take or leave, which could complement any number of other things including verbal communication that was possible and called for here, since she said she heard the belayer talking while she was climbing. 

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35
Henry Lester wrote:

What is it about 100% that you don't understand? I just added a remedy that readers can take or leave, which could complement any number of other things including verbal communication that was possible and called for here, since she said she heard the belayer talking while she was climbing. 

You made a statement saying it was the belayers fault then followed it with a statement about how it was the climbers fault or how the climber could have prevented it.

It’s the same type of statement as “I don’t want to sound racist but ….”

Joe Senderson · · Cocksackie, NY · Joined Jun 2018 · Points: 6
Collin H wrote:

At least he was wearing that glove...

In all seriousness, that's awful. It should be a good reminder not only to give an attentive and proper belay, but to intervene when we see dangerous belaying. I'm generally not someone who thinks we should have more liability, but this doesn't seem that different from seriously injuring someone with careless or reckless driving.

Seriously! I had this happen to me (on top rope in a small grease factory, no more then 45’) and thinking back on it I was climbing with the gyms team. Well anyways I let go from the top and the person belaying grabbed the atc wrong. I was fine (at 15 you still bounce) but my belayer had rope burns that took at least 3 months to heal enough to climb on, we stayed bouldering friends after that but I’m sure she’ll never forget that sting. Seems like he probably deserved a mandatory time out after that from the climbing gods! That’s criminal negligence 

amarius · · Nowhere, OK · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 20

Some thoughts from Mr. Will Gadd, a climber of some fame. This is link to FB reel, probably going to go away at some point FB reel

I am posting select edited bits first, the whole post is at the bottom.  I highlighted certain statements that I found especially aggravating.

The first response to many accidents is to blame the person closest to the accident. Especially if they didn’t follow stated policies.<...>
Falls in this type of climbing are routine, and even with equally poor belaying 99.99% of the time nothing bad happens.<...>

No, Mr. Gadd, falls of this type - where belayer fucks up due to the disregard of manufacturer's usage recommendations -  are NOT routine. Yes, not all belay mistakes lead to people experiencing life threatening injuries.

I disagree: If the error was so obviously going to lead to an accident, then why didn’t anyone step in to stop it? At least six people who could have done so didnt. In fact, one of the other “experts” distracts the belayer.<...>
This sort of practice/belaying is very common in climbing/work everywhere, and few step in.<...> And I would bet big $ that none of the hindsight heroes would have stepped in either.<...>

No, Mr. Gadd, this sort of belaying is not common especially after "experienced" climbers doing it are getting called out. Can't really speak for other hindsight heroes, but my count of stepping in is, I believe, 3 at this point, and I don't even climb that much.

Blaming/holding the belayer “accountable” for the accident will, sadly, do nothing to get the outcome we all want: to stop the next accident.<...>  If we primarily blame the belayer then we stop learning because we “know” what happened: That guy <...> didn’t follow procedures! Problem solved! Except that “solution” solves nothing for the bad belaying I see regularly, nor the next .01 percent event in any work or recreational setting.<...>

No, Mr. Gadd, unless climbers call out bad belaying techniques nothing is going to change. 

To the belayer, I am so very sorry this accident happened. I can see by your face at the end of the video that you didn't want it to happen, and that you'll live with that error for the rest of your life. <...> [Y]ou didn't intend for this to happen, and yet it did. I have made belay errors at least as bad as the ones you made, but I got lucky that the .01 percent event didn't happen to me, or the people I see doing the same in the gym regularly. To both the climber and the belayer, life isn't fair, and this shouldn't have happened, and I hope we can learn and do better out of respect for you both and this terrible accident. It will take a cultural change, and this this video is maybe powerful enough to help start that.

Yes, Mr. Gadd, this video is, indeed, very powerful - it demonstrates how using unacceptable lead belaying techniques may cause a near fatal accident. No, Mr. Gadd, no climber has respect for this belayer.

The whole post stitched together -

The first response to many accidents is to blame the person closest to the accident. Especially if they didn’t follow stated policies. After this video came out many hindsight experts savaged the guy holding the rope. He should be put in jail,” “Shoot him,” “Idiot.” Falls in this type of climbing are routine, and even with equally poor belaying 99.99% of the time nothing bad happens.

I disagree: If the error was so obviously going to lead to an accident, then why didn’t anyone step in to stop it? At least six people who could have done so didnt. In fact, one of the other “experts” distracts the belayer.

Here’s a more difficult view: This sort of practice/belaying is very common in climbing/work everywhere, and few step in. And I would bet big $ that none of the hindsight heroes would have stepped in either. Few of us do unless we work/play in a good safety culture.

Blaming/holding the belayer “accountable” for the accident will, sadly, do nothing to get the outcome we all want: to stop the next accident. In fact, as Todd Conklin writes, you can either blame, or learn, but not both.  If we primarily blame the belayer then we stop learning because we “know” what happened: That guy was a malicious SOB who didn’t follow procedures! Problem solved! Except that “solution” solves nothing for the bad belaying I see regularly, nor the next .01 percent event in any work or recreational setting. If we don’t learn and change then we don’t prevent future accidents. Our safety culture tolerates bad practices routinely.

For those who want to blame the belayer: Unlike the people on scene, would you have stepped in prior to this accident without knowing it was going to happen? Do you do so now in your work or recreational culture? If so I commend you and your culture, please tell me more! If not why not, and how do we change it? I feel strongly we need to move from a culture of “blame the person closest to the accident” to one of learning and real change. Cont. in comments. 

See less

 

Post continued: To the amazing @sara.qunaibet, l am so very sorry this happened to you, and I love watching you literally climbing back. You inspire the hell out of me in a lot of ways. I also respect the courage it took to share your video, and appreciate you letting me share it with a different perspective.

To the belayer, I am so very sorry this accident happened. I can see by your face at the end of the video that you didn't want it to happen, and that you'll live with that error for the rest of your life. Another of Conklin's five principles of is that "Intent Matters", and you didn't intend for this to happen, and yet it did. I have made belay errors at least as bad as the ones you made, but I got lucky that the .01 percent event didn't happen to me, or the people I see doing the same in the gym regularly. To both the climber and the belayer, life isn't fair, and this shouldn't have happened, and I hope we can learn and do better out of respect for you both and this terrible accident. It will take a cultural change, and this this video is maybe powerful enough to help start that.

I also encourage everyone to read and understand the Petzl GriGri use videos. To know them so well that you can confidently help others avoid this type of error when you see bad technique BEFORE the event, not just in hindsight. And if someone gets all wound up at you because you dare bring up a safety concern please blame me, I'm OK with being the safety ass. I am not OK with my culture continuing to tolerate poor technique and then savaging our own on the backside of an event in hindsight.

Jeremy L · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2020 · Points: 547

I don't know Will Gadd but I know of him. While I don't agree 100% with what he says, there are takeaways from his post. If you watch any of his videos, he strikes me as someone who tries to learn from every experience (& he's probably been through a lot). Seems like he's trying to put himself in the belayer's shoes. I'd like to think that I'd never fuck up this bad but how do you move forward after something like this? It's easy for me to watch the video, type my little comment & move on but for the climber AND the belayer, they'll have to deal with the consequences of this event. 1st step would obviously be to take responsibility for the accident but again, i try to put myself in his shoes. I've dedicated my life to this sport, I'm a climbing coach for the French national team, I've caught (probably) a thousand whips in my career & I've never had anything like this happen. Now what?

Mr Gadd, very articulately, is just suggesting some grace & empathy. I also like that he quoted Conklin about blaming & learning. Very zen. Real good way to approach life.

Thanks for sharing

L Kap · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 105

When I read the sentence "Falls in this type of climbing are routine, and even with equally poor belaying 99.99% of the time nothing bad happens", I undertand it to mean that the fall itself (a whip before clipping the anchors) is routine. Which is true.

I'm not sure exactly what is the lesson Will Gadd is saying we should learn. It sounds like he's saying that climbing culture needs to change, and that it's not very helpful to just point a finger at an individual who was acting pretty typically within existing culture. It is true that many folks call out this type of belaying. Nevertheless, this type of belaying is still common, as evidenced by the fact that we're still always talking about it and complaining about it, decades after Petzl's grigri use instructions first warned against it.

amarius · · Nowhere, OK · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 20
L Kap wrote:

It sounds like he's saying that climbing culture needs to change, and that it's not very helpful to just point a finger at an individual who was acting pretty typically within existing culture.

Calling out bad belaying has a noticeable effect. 

Most importantly, it stops normalizing bad belaying. It also makes it more acceptable to step in and point out shortcomings and dangers  of bad belaying.

L Kap · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 105
amarius wrote:

Calling out bad belaying has a noticeable effect. 

Most importantly, it stops normalizing bad belaying. It also makes it more acceptable to step in and point out shortcomings and dangers  of bad belaying.

Yes, I agree. Lots of us agree, and lots of us call out bad belaying. And it still happens frequently. This is the cultural problem that I think we're talking about. 

grug g · · SLC · Joined Jul 2022 · Points: 0
amarius wrote:

Calling out bad belaying has a noticeable effect. 

Calling out bad behavior brings out the psychopaths. Be careful. 

M M · · Maine · Joined Oct 2020 · Points: 2
grug g wrote:

Calling out bad behavior brings out the psychopaths. Be careful. 

Agree, psychos will psycho and it's never pleasant. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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