Textbook Bad GriGri belay puts comp climber in hospital

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WBGkKqLhM8Y&pp=ygUMaGFyZCBpcyBlYXN5 In depth analysis of the accident by „Hard is Easy“. I have to say I initially misjudged the situation. The belayer was very experienced and I can see now how this sort of thing can happen to someone who is experienced and thinks they can get away with not following best practices. It also changes what I expect my belayer to do. Up to now I was OK with experienced climbers just doing their thing when belaying me. I think in the future I will correct the person if they are doing sth unsafe/ have a conversation with them, no matter how long they have been belaying this way. 

M M wrote:

I love how easy it is for almost every thread on the proj to get derailed into grigri good vs grigri bad, it makes me smile.

Maybe that's because the grigri has both strong pros (versatility, works very well when used as instructed) and equally strong cons (very often NOT used exactly as instructed, many fatal and serious accidents and near-misses from misuse).

I appreciated the "Hard is Easy" analysis video posted just above in this thread, and I was saddened by Ben (the Hard is Easy guy) saying that each time he makes a video about grigris, he thinks it will be the last one.

It's probably not the last one.

Following Ben's lead, here is a repost of Sara Qunaibet's IG, for those who want to support her. https://www.instagram.com/sara.qunaibet/ 

Philippe Wagner wrote:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WBGkKqLhM8Y&pp=ygUMaGFyZCBpcyBlYXN5 In depth analysis of the accident by „Hard is Easy“. I have to say I initially misjudged the situation. The belayer was very experienced and I can see now how this sort of thing can happen to someone who is experienced and thinks they can get away with not following best practices. It also changes what I expect my belayer to do. Up to now I was OK with experienced climbers just doing their thing when belaying me. I think in the future I will correct the person if they are doing sth unsafe/ have a conversation with them, no matter how long they have been belaying this way. 

100% agree.
if you watch the video-- the climber did an unnanounced fall at the penultimate bolt during their warmup climb, as part of there usually mental prep  strategy. The belayer (with terrible technique, not paying attention, all the appropriate  hand-wringing discussed in this thread etc...) interpreted the rope tension as the climber needing slack, couldn't correct fast enough, and the rest is history. 

A long way of saying-- any unannounced fall is riskier than no fall at all. In ideal scenarios, the difference in risk is close to zero. But it's something to think about for anyone who  climbs 1000s of routes a year, and thus, from a statistical perspective, open themselves up to rare but high-consequence situations. 

Brandon R wrote:

It's (the grigri) also evidently the most casually misused belay device. 

FTFY

Nice. I think you are implying that with a glance you are prepared to understand how every belay device works. Which I am calling out as a lie. You are not an expert in every device - no one is. 

grug g wrote:

Nice. I think you are implying that with a glance you are prepared to understand how every belay device works. Which I am calling out as a lie. You are not an expert in every device - no one is. 

You don't think there are people who collect belay devices, and have used all of them?

Khoi wrote:

You don't think there are people who collect belay devices, and have used all of them?

But have they used this one?

grug g wrote:

Nice. I think you are implying that with a glance you are prepared to understand how every belay device works. Which I am calling out as a lie. You are not an expert in every device - no one is. 

Of all the "bullshit" devices you listed, I can pretty easily tell if they were installed correctly and if the belayer's brake hand has a firm grip on the brake side of the rope.  If it's a device that I'm not familiar with, I could just ask how it works before being belayed by it. It's really not as difficult as you make it out to be.

Philippe Wagner wrote:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WBGkKqLhM8Y&pp=ygUMaGFyZCBpcyBlYXN5 In depth analysis of the accident by „Hard is Easy“. I have to say I initially misjudged the situation. The belayer was very experienced and I can see now how this sort of thing can happen to someone who is experienced and thinks they can get away with not following best practices. It also changes what I expect my belayer to do. Up to now I was OK with experienced climbers just doing their thing when belaying me. I think in the future I will correct the person if they are doing sth unsafe/ have a conversation with them, no matter how long they have been belaying this way. 

I’m curious if this also changed your thinking on what best practices look like. In the instructions for the GriGri, Petzl states: “The other technique [the three finger grip], for occasional and short-term use, requires different hand positioning for a very limited time. Your hands must immediately return to the primary belaying position [full hand on the brake and not touching the device].”

It’s also true that using the three-finger grip as the primary belay position is good enough 99.999% of the time. Many climbers use it without incident, I have personally used it and caught falls with it, and it may be well within the risk-tolerance of a climber and their belayer. It’s a personal choice, but it’s not best practice, and it’s not recommended by Petzl.

To me, the primary value of the method recommended by Petzl is that it guards against complacency with experience. If we look at the belay style shown in the video, it seems much harder to end up there if you are starting with the recommended method than it would be if you are constantly in the three-finger grip. 

J W wrote:

If I can match your misreading, you think having used a device makes you an expert?

How much of an expert do you have to be to recognize that a belay device is not being used properly?

The vast majority of climbers do not understand the intricacies of the Grigri to the level that Ben from Hard Is Easy does, but how many of them do you think cannot recognize a Grigri being used improperly?

Now, whether or not they feel comfortable raising the issue with the belayer, that's another matter.

BTW, thanks for drawing attention to Grug's moving of goalposts.

From: "have no idea if their technique or set up is sound."

To: "expert"

Collin H wrote:

I’m curious if this also changed your thinking on what best practices look like. In the instructions for the GriGri, Petzl states: “The other technique [the three finger grip], for occasional and short-term use, requires different hand positioning for a very limited time. Your hands must immediately return to the primary belaying position [full hand on the brake and not touching the device].”

It’s also true that using the three-finger grip as the primary belay position is good enough 99.999% of the time. Many climbers use it without incident, I have personally used it and caught falls with it, and it may be well within the risk-tolerance of a climber and their belayer. It’s a personal choice, but it’s not best practice, and it’s not recommended by Petzl.

To me, the primary value of the method recommended by Petzl is that it guards against complacency with experience. If we look at the belay style shown in the video, it seems much harder to end up there if you are starting with the recommended method than it would be if you are constantly in the three-finger grip. 

You are making a good point there. Definitely open to trying it, maybe I‘ll get a new rope or try a Neox. I feel like using the 3 finger method (instead of gripping the Grigri with the whole hand) is no inconvenience. Using the method recommended by Petz however (no permanent contact with the Grigri) kinda sucks if you have a thicker/fuzzy rope and need to disable the cam every time you give slack. I was always very happy with the Grigri but I have to say, if you are not supposed to touch the Grigri for a prolonged time during belaying but its design really tempts you to do so, that might be somewhat of a design flaw. 

Brandon R wrote:

Of all the "bullshit" devices you listed, I can pretty easily tell if they were installed correctly and if the belayer's brake hand has a firm grip on the brake side of the rope.  If it's a device that I'm not familiar with, I could just ask how it works before being belayed by it. It's really not as difficult as you make it out to be.

Very nice - I guess you are ready to be belayed by anyone with any device. Climb on. 

I still would prefer people to use a grigri. Too many confidently incorrect climbers out there - like the clown in the original post video. 

Are we sure this was a grigri? Definitely a Petzl device, you can see it in the hard-is-easy video during a partner check. 

Another guy is walking around with a Neox.

Years of shitty gri-gri technique, used on a Neox? Meat-pawing the device like an idiot would stop the wheel from tipping up to even start acting like a cam. Could be a factor in how an "experienced belayer" had his terrible technique finally catch up to him.

------------------------------

Edit: Nope, I am wrong. White shirt guy has a Neox for sure. Belayer did not. 

Scurvy Dave wrote:

Are we sure this was a grigri? Definitely a Petzl device, you can see it in the hard-is-easy video during a partner check. 

Another guy is walking around with a Neox.

Years of shitty gri-gri technique, used on a Neox? Meat-pawing the device like an idiot would stop the wheel from tipping up to even start acting like a cam. Could be a factor in how an "experienced belayer" had his terrible technique finally catch up to him.

I think you are on to something here. I bet that belayer is super experienced with grigris

Scurvy Dave wrote:

Are we sure this was a grigri? Definitely a Petzl device, you can see it in the hard-is-easy video during a partner check. 

Another guy is walking around with a Neox.

Years of shitty gri-gri technique, used on a Neox? Meat-pawing the device like an idiot would stop the wheel from tipping up to even start acting like a cam. Could be a factor in how an "experienced belayer" had his terrible technique finally catch up to him.

The link to the Hard Is Easy YouTube clip posted above. Ben says he upscaled the video and watched it frame by frame.

The device used is stated to be a Grigri

You know what, you could be right. Looks like the black annodized Neox with the semi-circle cut outs around the wheel. Did Petzl make the grigri in black annodized?

Neox feeds much faster with almost no resistance even without holding the cam. I have at least one friend who won't use a Neox because it feels much less in control. I don't know why the belayer would have held down the cam. It's almost impossible to lock a Neox with an ATC-style belay, which IMO is its main advantage over the grigri, for folks who are really concerned with avoiding short-roping.

Edit - oh I read that too fast. You're saying that second photo is a Neox, but that's a different person. 

L Kap wrote:

You know what, you could be right. Looks like the black annodized Neox with the semi-circle cut outs around the wheel. Did Petzl make the grigri in black annodized?

Yes, Petzl did make a Grigri in black.

Scroll up a bit and you can see a photo of one of them.

I have tried belaying with a Neox a friend has, was able to short rope quite effectively due to years of hurriedly feeding 1/2-arm-of- slack for high clips.

Distressing to watch the fall.

Looks like I was wrong. Hard-is-easy clarified that there is footage not shown in his video where you can see that it is a gri-gri. 

The other device shown is certainly a Neox. Regardless of color, it has cutouts that only a Neox has.

When was the accident? It sounded like (Ben’s video) she was about four months into rehab. Did I hear that correctly?

I’m going to start speaking up… I see pretty crazy stuff around here all the time. Maybe I’ll carry a little flyer to pass out with the video links to Ben’s Grigri videos as well as Petzl’s video. Just hand off a flyer, rather than a long conversation, maybe…?

Daniel Joder wrote:

When was the accident?

According to the post on the Instagram -

On the second day of the training comp in France for IFSC World Cup in Korea

The cup was October 2-6, 2024

Video was posted, roughly, Feb 23, 2025