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Textbook Bad GriGri belay puts comp climber in hospital
Jeremy Lwrote: Jeremy, with regard to the Pilot (or Smart, same design), the key here is that the hand positions negate the panic of a belayer by design, should it happen. When paying out slack and your climber falls, you tense up and bring your hands down. On a pilot this locks up the device. On a grigri you clamp down on the cam harder, and if you don't hold the brake strand, you have defeated the device. Lowering on the pilot involves rocking the device upwards, which is less good. A panic here could lead you to keep pulling the device back, dropping your climber for good. The Smart's way to lower is slightly more awkward but safer. |
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I love how easy it is for almost every thread on the proj to get derailed into grigri good vs grigri bad, it makes me smile. |
J Lwrote: All assisted braking devices, by design, will automatically arrest a fall if left alone (hence the term "assisted"). It's physics. When you add a human into the mix, all bets are off. Every device can be defeated. Petzl & BD & edelrid & whoever else can design THE MOST IDIOT PROOF device in creation but there will always be idiots who insist on pushing the envelope. Like I said, I don't care what device you use as long as you PAY ATTENTION. |
I watched a belayer using a Pilot nearly drop their climber - the climber fell at the top of an 80ft tall route, and the belayer was not holding the brake strand down in the braking position, they were holding it above the plane of the device. The climber fell low enough that they would have hit their belayer had the route not been slightly overhanging, and the only reason the fall was arrested was the rope burned the belayer's hand and he let go with both hands in pain, and then the device locked up. The belayer then had the nerve to loudly complain to everybody in earshot that he wouldn't be able to climb now with rope burn on his hands. I also saw the aftermath of improper Gri Gri use at my gym about 2 weeks ago when one instructor dropped another instructor from the 7th bolt while teaching kids how to belay. Using the exact same method as the belayer in the video. I've always been a vocal advocate of reading the owner's manual, learning how the device operates, and learning how to cause it to malfunction, and then having the basic human decency of caring more about the safety of the climber than your own ego when you're wrong about how you've been doing things. And yet people constantly get hurt feelings when confronted with their shitty belay techniques. |
Bb Cc wrote: Whichever gives you the warm & fuzzies |
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Despite the 100% belayers fault, the climber can, at the top, as in this scenario, grab the other side of the rope from the anchor and self belay for a bit to verify that the belayer has her. This is what my friend and I came up with years ago, after we watched a leader deck after reaching the anchors. Communicating, checking knots, and systems are all well and good, but it is your life, so this is a good habit especially outdoors. Furthermore, especially in this setting, the random person that comes up and starts distracting the belayer should leave the belayer alone until they are done; they bear some responsibility too. |
Henry Lesterwrote: The climber was a kid. The adult bears the responsibility of the whole situation. |
cubist Awrote: I'd worry about backfeeding while bringing up a second. It happens with the GriGri but isn't terrible. I imagine it is much worse with the Neox (since that is the whole point of it -- easy feeding when not weighted). The additional effort needed to resist the weight of the rope pulling through the device the whole time is energy not well spent. I want any device I bring to work with a leader or a follower. That being said, I admit I have not tried belaying a follower on a long pitch with it. I believe it is also not recommended by Petzl, though, presumably for the reason I state above. |
Russ Keanewrote: It doesn't need to be. A new skinny rope, an old grigri, and a hands free belayer are a perfect way to deck. I have been dropped twice wth this scenario. |
Henry Lesterwrote: I hate it when I'm trying to lower someone and they grab the rope like that. With no weight on the rope it's awkward to give out slack |
Henry Lesterwrote: I agree to some level - its your life - dont just blindly put it into some other human despite how much you trust them. |
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The most important pro GriGri argument: because it is the standard that most people use with a QUICK GLANCE IMMEDIATELY DETERMINE if there is a set up error or technique error. In just a few seconds of handling you can KNOW that someone is doing the basics wrong or right. You can climb up 5 feet and look down and watch a good execution or not. When people are using some fringe mega-pilot-jule-edlerid-giga-smart bullshit you have no idea if their technique or set up is sound. |
grug gwrote: It's (the grigri) also evidently the most casually misused belay device.
FTFY |
grug gwrote:  |
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I was at the USAC regional qualifier comp in Boulder today. The climbers and belayers are all instructed that the climbers should clip the anchor draw at the top and jump off, without the belayers taking tight. I don't know if it's the same expectation at the World Cup and/or the national training camp in France (or actually it looks like it was a gym in Switzerland), but if it is, the climber was doing as instructed by the officials / coaches, and the fall should have been 100% expected by the belayer every time. |
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WBGkKqLhM8Y&pp=ygUMaGFyZCBpcyBlYXN5 In depth analysis of the accident by „Hard is Easy“. I have to say I initially misjudged the situation. The belayer was very experienced and I can see now how this sort of thing can happen to someone who is experienced and thinks they can get away with not following best practices. It also changes what I expect my belayer to do. Up to now I was OK with experienced climbers just doing their thing when belaying me. I think in the future I will correct the person if they are doing sth unsafe/ have a conversation with them, no matter how long they have been belaying this way. |
M Mwrote: Maybe that's because the grigri has both strong pros (versatility, works very well when used as instructed) and equally strong cons (very often NOT used exactly as instructed, many fatal and serious accidents and near-misses from misuse). |
Philippe Wagnerwrote: 100% agree. A long way of saying-- any unannounced fall is riskier than no fall at all. In ideal scenarios, the difference in risk is close to zero. But it's something to think about for anyone who climbs 1000s of routes a year, and thus, from a statistical perspective, open themselves up to rare but high-consequence situations. |
Brandon Rwrote: Nice. I think you are implying that with a glance you are prepared to understand how every belay device works. Which I am calling out as a lie. You are not an expert in every device - no one is. |
grug gwrote: You don't think there are people who collect belay devices, and have used all of them? |
