Textbook Bad GriGri belay puts comp climber in hospital

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:

What I’m not understanding here is why haven’t these people been identified? This site is notorious for doxing people but this, in a case where someone needs to be publicly shamed, we’re talking about ATC’s and gri gri’s and shit?

Mp, do your worst. 

A commenter on IG said that it is due to privacy laws in France where it can be a criminal offense to film and post someone without their consent.   

There have been some hints that it is a temporary coach for either the traveling Saudi climbers, and/or associated with the gym.

Collin H wrote:

Fair enough, seems I'm in the minority here. I think I worded my prior post too strongly, I wasn't trying to suggest that keeping a hand on the GriGri is necessarily unsafe (so long as the thumb is not over the cam and your grip is correct). Your last post described the GriGri design as flawed, suggested the method of resting the GriGri on the fingers is awkward and non-intuitive, and potentially prone to panic gripping. I was trying to point out that if you do find that position awkward and are concerned about the possibility of panic-gripping, this method may greatly reduce those issues, so it's not a safety issue inherent to the design. When your hand is on the brake and not the GriGri 95% of the time, panic gripping is rarely possible. It's probably for this reason that this is the method Petzl recommends.

When I first tried paying slack without decamming, the GriGri reliably locked up and was a total pain. With some subtle changes in belay technique, it now feels nearly as smooth as an ATC, and it feels more natural than keeping my hand on the GriGri. I don't leave extra slack and totally hate the "sport loop" thing, although I do have long arms. I find that smooth feeding mostly has to do with the angle of the rope and not pulling slack out faster than you feed rope in. You do have to anticipate when the climber might need a lot of rope quickly and be ready to quickly decam when they do. Especially for new lead belayers, I think it promotes good belaying habits. It requires you to be attentive and dynamic, allows a firmer grip on the brake, and removes some of the temptation to hover over the cam or get too loose with the brake. I was initially taught to belay by resting the GriGri on my finger, and I felt like that method lent itself too easily to lax and lazy belaying. But that's just my personal preference, it's absolutely possible to belay safely the other way as long as you don’t get complacent. This video shows the lax belay style I'm talking about, and shows a fairly uncommon failure mechanism that can result from it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz1PTbjQ3pc

You (and I) are definitely in the minority. Pretty much everybody I see using a grigri has their brake hand touching the device at all times. In the past Petzl has specifically instructed belayers not to do so, but nobody cares.  FWIW the technique is almost always safe, but the video shows a freak failure mode. I remember discussing that video and this very issue a couple years ago: old thread

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:

What I’m not understanding here is why haven’t these people been identified?

You dig deep enough, you'll find it. It's on the comments section on IG. He's associated with the French national team. Not gonna post it here cause I'm not into doxxing & wouldn't see what that would accomplish.

Allan Staigl wrote:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DGYNzl9yDKP/?igsh=MTBlZjE4YzMxOA==

More bad belaying.

 quoting her "When I fell, the force of the rope yanked my belayer’s hand into the wall. The pain caused him to momentarily lose his grip on the brake strand of the ATC.This incident could have been avoided with an assisted-braking device like a GriGri. Always prioritize your gear choices and communicate clearly with your belayer  ".

the belayer was simply too far away from the wall, right? they look about the same weightclass and he got yonked all the way in with enough force left to hurt him. the grigri *maybe* would have helped (unless when he smacks the wall somehow he pulls the lever or blocks the cam or the rope is too slick or whatever), but for sure it could have been avoided with a more competent belayer, perhaps "encouraged" by belay glasses to stay where he's supposed to... i feel like she's missing the point here.

Allan Staigl wrote:

Found it. Not posting it either. Anyone know criminal liability laws in Switzerland?

Don't know about specific Swiss law, but you seem to be mixing up two different legal concepts, that seem to be fairly universal. You asked about 'criminal liability'--but doesn't seem to have been any 'crime' in this situation. I think what you are seeking is information about 'civil liability'--( what lawyers call 'torts'). 

Collin H wrote:

Fair enough, seems I'm in the minority here. I think I worded my prior post too strongly, I wasn't trying to suggest that keeping a hand on the GriGri is necessarily unsafe (so long as the thumb is not over the cam and your grip is correct). Your last post described the GriGri design as flawed, suggested the method of resting the GriGri on the fingers is awkward and non-intuitive, and potentially prone to panic gripping. I was trying to point out that if you do find that position awkward and are concerned about the possibility of panic-gripping, this method may greatly reduce those issues, so it's not a safety issue inherent to the design. When your hand is on the brake and not the GriGri 95% of the time, panic gripping is rarely possible. It's probably for this reason that this is the method Petzl recommends.

Thanks for that. My post might not have been entirely clear. The panic grip is a problem when you're holding the grigri in your right hand and defeating the cam by squeezing, which was the original belay technique everyone used, and appears to be the technique used by the belayer in the OP's video.  This is how the grigri was designed to be used, but it's unambiguously dangerous.

The work around is the now-recommended technique of balancing the grigri with your right index finger under the lip, brake strand held by your three weakest fingers (which sometimes are not actually holding), and thumb free to move across the cam to block it. This is less dangerous but awkward and non-intuitive. No designer would intentionally, from scratch, design a device to be used this way by human hands. For sure, this method reduces the possibility of a panic grip reflex, even if you don't alternate this grip with ATC-style feeding. It just takes a ton more practice to learn to do well and has a bunch of factors the belayer has to manage/mitigate that are much less of a problem with a device like the Pilot. 

Collin H wrote:
When I first tried paying slack without decamming, the GriGri reliably locked up and was a total pain. With some subtle changes in belay technique, it now feels nearly as smooth as an ATC, and it feels more natural than keeping my hand on the GriGri. I don't leave extra slack and totally hate the "sport loop" thing, although I do have long arms. I find that smooth feeding mostly has to do with the angle of the rope and not pulling slack out faster than you feed rope in. You do have to anticipate when the climber might need a lot of rope quickly and be ready to quickly decam when they do. Especially for new lead belayers, I think it promotes good belaying habits. It requires you to be attentive and dynamic, allows a firmer grip on the brake, and removes some of the temptation to hover over the cam or get too loose with the brake. I was initially taught to belay by resting the GriGri on my finger, and I felt like that method lent itself too easily to lax and lazy belaying. But that's just my personal preference, it's absolutely possible to belay safely the other way as long as you don’t get complacent. This video shows the lax belay style I'm talking about, and shows a fairly uncommon failure mechanism that can result from it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz1PTbjQ3pc

Those are helpful technique tips, and sure, there are benefits to having a device that is finicky enough to operate that it forces you to learn your craft and be attentive. There are also drawbacks. Human error is a thing. Why not prefer a device that does a critical job easily, reliably, and intuitively? Have you ever tried a Pilot? Of that class of devices (including the Jul family, Rama, and Smart), I find the Pilot is the smoothest belay and easiest on the elbows.

Philippe Wagner wrote:

I don’t agree on this, Grigri resting on the finger is the default position when I pay out slack and I don’t consider it dangerous. I have the braking strand in my hand at all times and if the climbing falls my hand goes down in the breaking position (same reaction as with ATC). I feel zero temptation to death grip the Grigri when it’s only resting on my finger (doesn’t feel natural) and I even doubt I would be able to if I wanted.

Petzl disagrees that the default position is keeping the thumb in feed position yet it is common,  just like the old original method was.

My old partner used to whip a LOT and the one time he whipped while I was feeding with my thumb on the cam he fell twice as far. It's amazing how fast the rope ripped through the device. 

A skinny 9.8- rope and a typical ATC feed is not only safer but its also easier if you pay attention IMO 

That belayer should be internationally shamed

M M wrote:

Petzl disagrees that the default position is keeping the thumb in feed position yet it is common,  just like the old original method was.

Grigri "resting on the finger" is not necessariy the same as "keeping the thumb in feed position". The difference is whether your thumb stays constantly on/over the cam, which it should not, no matter where your hand is.

if you have strong enough opinions to discuss grigri safety on this thread but haven't done the following, please go out and do your own testing. do lead falls at the gym from a safe height, backed up, and try to override it. use a skinny rope and a fat rope, hold the cam with your thumb, grip it with your whole hand, etc. feed it a few basic parameters and see what happens. it's fun and you'll learn a lot. incident-free belaying using the manual's instructions (or not even- most people haven't read it) does not make you an expert. if you want to discuss this, go become an expert first.

"and try to override it."

Personally I have a hard time understanding how someone's thumb is stronger than the force of a falling human.  

Russ Keane wrote:

"and try to override it."

Personally I have a hard time understanding how someone's thumb is stronger than the force of a falling human.  

Here is this particular GG scenario isolated - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz1PTbjQ3pc

Also relatively often used technique - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YkpZ-_e4mk 

More ways to fuck up with GG - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKe72j_mBlU
One of the scenarios Ben covers is exactly the one in the accident video.

Gumby King wrote:

Clearly, the belayer caught the attention of others for poor belaying since they (not the climber) were filmed.  When people see something they should say something.  People get offended if they are corrected but at what cost?

LOL. No, it was caught on film because lots of competitive climbers film EVERYTHING they do in the gym to be able to go back and watch their technique. 

L Kap wrote:

It is climber elitism to say that accidents are always the fault of the user, never the gear.

This is why I prefer the ATC Pilot over the grigri for lead belaying.

Okay are you trolling? You don't actually believe this do you? 

Let's ask what the best climbers in the world use? Yep looks like GriGri.

Let's ask what the 20+ year veterans use? Yep looks like GriGri.

What is your argument again? The GriGri doesn't have aesthetic design principles? Or your fingers aren't strong enough to hold it?  

Why does he have to use a grigri again? Because some guys are paid to use it? Pro climbers are mostly billboards for their sponsors.

Sure, hundreds of thousands of users out there, me included. I have a tube-style device on my harness too. I give a reliable, error free (mostly) belay with either device, and a munter too.

Can you?

As someone briefly mentioned, the new Neox removes this failure mode -- there is no need to defeat the cam at any time, it feeds like a dream.  In my gym, the ropes are fat, fuzzy, and sometimes deformed if they are older and being used as TRs too; they jam up a normal GriGri all the time.  The Neox has no problem.  Hopefully no new failure modes have been introduced....

I'll still use my normal GriGri for climbing outside, though.  My personal ropes are skinnier and not deformed, and I can use it to bring up a second (I wouldn't use the Neox on a multipitch).

Russ Keane wrote:

"and try to override it."

Personally I have a hard time understanding how someone's thumb is stronger than the force of a falling human.  

If it took the force of a falling climber to override the grigri, then it would be impossible to lower the climber, at least with the lever at its current length. 

Gumby King wrote:

Clearly, the belayer caught the attention of others for poor belaying since they (not the climber) were filmed.  When people see something they should say something.  People get offended if they are corrected but at what cost?

The camera was stationary—probably on a tripod—filming the climber on the entire route. Where we see the focus on the belayer, that's because the video was cropped in order to highlight the belaying. You can see this when we get the full view of the fall.

grug g wrote:

Okay are you trolling? You don't actually believe this do you? 

Let's ask what the best climbers in the world use? Yep looks like GriGri.

Let's ask what the 20+ year veterans use? Yep looks like GriGri.

What is your argument again? The GriGri doesn't have aesthetic design principles? Or your fingers aren't strong enough to hold it?  

Grigris have some advantages over the Pilot, like the ability to smoothly rappel, to bring up a follower, use in rope ascension, and to hold a hang-dogging climber without slipping and without applying force. One critical category where the Pilot beats the grigri is smooth, ergonomic lead belaying with your full hand on the brake strand and virtually no chance of dropping your climber. For me, that's the argument winner. Others' mileage may vary.

For the record, aesthetics have nothing to do with the design principles I'm talking about. Call it ergonomics, user experience, human-centered design... something that can be used naturally and intuitively by human hands and human brains. The grigri quite glaringly obviously ain't it. Witness all the videos people are posting about devious ways the grigri (or its user) can fail and every technique tip you need to know to avoid it.

And since you mention it, I am a 20+ year climber, and my fingers work reasonably well, thanks.

ETA - if the belayer in the OP had been using a Pilot, the climber would not have hit the ground. It seems to be impossible to keep a Pilot unblocked in a high speed fall. If anyone knows of such a case, please post it. 

I used a BD pilot for my 1st 3 years climbing because of affordability & simplicity in design. I agree that it's very ergonomic. However, I disagree that it's impossible to defeat the device. Next time you're lowering your climber, pull up on the thumb catch like you want to lower them faster. I can guarantee that the rope will zip through your pilot like butter. All you have to do is let go & physics will arrest your climber. Just like the grigri.

I don't care which belay device you're using, how much "muscle memory" or comfortable you are with your belay device. If you're not paying attention to the task at hand & have an inexplicable panic reaction, bad things will happen.

Peter Czoschke wrote:

I'll still use my normal GriGri for climbing outside, though.  My personal ropes are skinnier and not deformed, and I can use it to bring up a second (I wouldn't use the Neox on a multipitch).

Why wouldn't you use the Neox on multipitch?