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Textbook Bad GriGri belay puts comp climber in hospital

L Kap · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 105
grug g wrote:

Disagree with your comments on GriGri design being the issue. Its the user 100%. The design works great when you are properly trained.

The variables you outline here are just none issues if you are properly trained. 

All of your arguments that the GriGri sucks are coming from a perspective of an untrained person. 

It is climber elitism to say that accidents are always the fault of the user, never the gear. It reminds me of the debates we used to have about installing heavy duty anchors (mussy hooks etc) that users can lower through rather than needing to rappel. The majority of the climbing community decided that relying on all climbers to be perfectly trained and never made mistakes is a worse choice than having gear that requires less skill / training / perfection to use without killing somebody.

This is why I prefer the ATC Pilot over the grigri for lead belaying. Easy to use but still assisted braking, much harder to kill someone, much less likely to pull your climber off the wall. 

Gumby King · · The Gym · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 52

Clearly, the belayer caught the attention of others for poor belaying since they (not the climber) were filmed.  When people see something they should say something.  People get offended if they are corrected but at what cost?

Collin H · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2020 · Points: 106
L Kap wrote:

The ability to pay out slack in a grigri without decamming, and without locking it up, is highly dependent on a bunch of variables. How long are your arms vs. the climbers? How fast and unexpectedly does your climber pull up slack? How high does your climber clip? How much slack are you willing to leave in the rope? How good are you at keeping the brake strand in the smooth-feeding position when moving between hand positions?

Go to any gym or crag, you will see it is exceedingly common for belayers to keep their brake hand up under the grigri. This elimates a lot of variables that can cause a belayer to short rope. The big thing for safety is that the belayer should take their thumb off the cam when not paying out slack. In addition to never letting go of the brake strand, of course. 

Fair enough, seems I'm in the minority here. I think I worded my prior post too strongly, I wasn't trying to suggest that keeping a hand on the GriGri is necessarily unsafe (so long as the thumb is not over the cam and your grip is correct). Your last post described the GriGri design as flawed, suggested the method of resting the GriGri on the fingers is awkward and non-intuitive, and potentially prone to panic gripping. I was trying to point out that if you do find that position awkward and are concerned about the possibility of panic-gripping, this method may greatly reduce those issues, so it's not a safety issue inherent to the design. When your hand is on the brake and not the GriGri 95% of the time, panic gripping is rarely possible. It's probably for this reason that this is the method Petzl recommends.

When I first tried paying slack without decamming, the GriGri reliably locked up and was a total pain. With some subtle changes in belay technique, it now feels nearly as smooth as an ATC, and it feels more natural than keeping my hand on the GriGri. I don't leave extra slack and totally hate the "sport loop" thing, although I do have long arms. I find that smooth feeding mostly has to do with the angle of the rope and not pulling slack out faster than you feed rope in. You do have to anticipate when the climber might need a lot of rope quickly and be ready to quickly decam when they do. Especially for new lead belayers, I think it promotes good belaying habits. It requires you to be attentive and dynamic, allows a firmer grip on the brake, and removes some of the temptation to hover over the cam or get too loose with the brake. I was initially taught to belay by resting the GriGri on my finger, and I felt like that method lent itself too easily to lax and lazy belaying. But that's just my personal preference, it's absolutely possible to belay safely the other way as long as you don’t get complacent. This video shows the lax belay style I'm talking about, and shows a fairly uncommon failure mechanism that can result from it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz1PTbjQ3pc

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion · · Colorado · Joined Oct 2012 · Points: 35

I’ve been belaying with a gri gri for 25 years. At this point, with few exceptions, I can pay slack faster with it than an ATC.

I did recently switch to the neox. It’s the same, just a little smoother.


What I’m not understanding here is why haven’t these people been identified? This site is notorious for doxing people but this, in a case where someone needs to be publicly shamed, we’re talking about ATC’s and gri gri’s and shit?

Mp, do your worst. 

Paul L · · Portland, OR · Joined Dec 2016 · Points: 346
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:

What I’m not understanding here is why haven’t these people been identified? This site is notorious for doxing people but this, in a case where someone needs to be publicly shamed, we’re talking about ATC’s and gri gri’s and shit?

Mp, do your worst. 

A commenter on IG said that it is due to privacy laws in France where it can be a criminal offense to film and post someone without their consent.   

There have been some hints that it is a temporary coach for either the traveling Saudi climbers, and/or associated with the gym.

JaredG · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 17
Collin H wrote:

Fair enough, seems I'm in the minority here. I think I worded my prior post too strongly, I wasn't trying to suggest that keeping a hand on the GriGri is necessarily unsafe (so long as the thumb is not over the cam and your grip is correct). Your last post described the GriGri design as flawed, suggested the method of resting the GriGri on the fingers is awkward and non-intuitive, and potentially prone to panic gripping. I was trying to point out that if you do find that position awkward and are concerned about the possibility of panic-gripping, this method may greatly reduce those issues, so it's not a safety issue inherent to the design. When your hand is on the brake and not the GriGri 95% of the time, panic gripping is rarely possible. It's probably for this reason that this is the method Petzl recommends.

When I first tried paying slack without decamming, the GriGri reliably locked up and was a total pain. With some subtle changes in belay technique, it now feels nearly as smooth as an ATC, and it feels more natural than keeping my hand on the GriGri. I don't leave extra slack and totally hate the "sport loop" thing, although I do have long arms. I find that smooth feeding mostly has to do with the angle of the rope and not pulling slack out faster than you feed rope in. You do have to anticipate when the climber might need a lot of rope quickly and be ready to quickly decam when they do. Especially for new lead belayers, I think it promotes good belaying habits. It requires you to be attentive and dynamic, allows a firmer grip on the brake, and removes some of the temptation to hover over the cam or get too loose with the brake. I was initially taught to belay by resting the GriGri on my finger, and I felt like that method lent itself too easily to lax and lazy belaying. But that's just my personal preference, it's absolutely possible to belay safely the other way as long as you don’t get complacent. This video shows the lax belay style I'm talking about, and shows a fairly uncommon failure mechanism that can result from it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz1PTbjQ3pc

You (and I) are definitely in the minority. Pretty much everybody I see using a grigri has their brake hand touching the device at all times. In the past Petzl has specifically instructed belayers not to do so, but nobody cares.  FWIW the technique is almost always safe, but the video shows a freak failure mode. I remember discussing that video and this very issue a couple years ago: old thread

Jeremy L · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2020 · Points: 762
highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:

What I’m not understanding here is why haven’t these people been identified?

You dig deep enough, you'll find it. It's on the comments section on IG. He's associated with the French national team. Not gonna post it here cause I'm not into doxxing & wouldn't see what that would accomplish.

stefano morandi · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2023 · Points: 0
Allan Staigl wrote:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DGYNzl9yDKP/?igsh=MTBlZjE4YzMxOA==

More bad belaying.

 quoting her "When I fell, the force of the rope yanked my belayer’s hand into the wall. The pain caused him to momentarily lose his grip on the brake strand of the ATC.This incident could have been avoided with an assisted-braking device like a GriGri. Always prioritize your gear choices and communicate clearly with your belayer  ".

the belayer was simply too far away from the wall, right? they look about the same weightclass and he got yonked all the way in with enough force left to hurt him. the grigri *maybe* would have helped (unless when he smacks the wall somehow he pulls the lever or blocks the cam or the rope is too slick or whatever), but for sure it could have been avoided with a more competent belayer, perhaps "encouraged" by belay glasses to stay where he's supposed to... i feel like she's missing the point here.



Alan Rubin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 10
Allan Staigl wrote:

Found it. Not posting it either. Anyone know criminal liability laws in Switzerland?

Don't know about specific Swiss law, but you seem to be mixing up two different legal concepts, that seem to be fairly universal. You asked about 'criminal liability'--but doesn't seem to have been any 'crime' in this situation. I think what you are seeking is information about 'civil liability'--( what lawyers call 'torts'). 

L Kap · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 105
Collin H wrote:

Fair enough, seems I'm in the minority here. I think I worded my prior post too strongly, I wasn't trying to suggest that keeping a hand on the GriGri is necessarily unsafe (so long as the thumb is not over the cam and your grip is correct). Your last post described the GriGri design as flawed, suggested the method of resting the GriGri on the fingers is awkward and non-intuitive, and potentially prone to panic gripping. I was trying to point out that if you do find that position awkward and are concerned about the possibility of panic-gripping, this method may greatly reduce those issues, so it's not a safety issue inherent to the design. When your hand is on the brake and not the GriGri 95% of the time, panic gripping is rarely possible. It's probably for this reason that this is the method Petzl recommends.

Thanks for that. My post might not have been entirely clear. The panic grip is a problem when you're holding the grigri in your right hand and defeating the cam by squeezing, which was the original belay technique everyone used, and appears to be the technique used by the belayer in the OP's video.  This is how the grigri was designed to be used, but it's unambiguously dangerous.

The work around is the now-recommended technique of balancing the grigri with your right index finger under the lip, brake strand held by your three weakest fingers (which sometimes are not actually holding), and thumb free to move across the cam to block it. This is less dangerous but awkward and non-intuitive. No designer would intentionally, from scratch, design a device to be used this way by human hands. For sure, this method reduces the possibility of a panic grip reflex, even if you don't alternate this grip with ATC-style feeding. It just takes a ton more practice to learn to do well and has a bunch of factors the belayer has to manage/mitigate that are much less of a problem with a device like the Pilot. 

Collin H wrote:
When I first tried paying slack without decamming, the GriGri reliably locked up and was a total pain. With some subtle changes in belay technique, it now feels nearly as smooth as an ATC, and it feels more natural than keeping my hand on the GriGri. I don't leave extra slack and totally hate the "sport loop" thing, although I do have long arms. I find that smooth feeding mostly has to do with the angle of the rope and not pulling slack out faster than you feed rope in. You do have to anticipate when the climber might need a lot of rope quickly and be ready to quickly decam when they do. Especially for new lead belayers, I think it promotes good belaying habits. It requires you to be attentive and dynamic, allows a firmer grip on the brake, and removes some of the temptation to hover over the cam or get too loose with the brake. I was initially taught to belay by resting the GriGri on my finger, and I felt like that method lent itself too easily to lax and lazy belaying. But that's just my personal preference, it's absolutely possible to belay safely the other way as long as you don’t get complacent. This video shows the lax belay style I'm talking about, and shows a fairly uncommon failure mechanism that can result from it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz1PTbjQ3pc

Those are helpful technique tips, and sure, there are benefits to having a device that is finicky enough to operate that it forces you to learn your craft and be attentive. There are also drawbacks. Human error is a thing. Why not prefer a device that does a critical job easily, reliably, and intuitively? Have you ever tried a Pilot? Of that class of devices (including the Jul family, Rama, and Smart), I find the Pilot is the smoothest belay and easiest on the elbows.

M M · · Maine · Joined Oct 2020 · Points: 2
Philippe Wagner wrote:

I don’t agree on this, Grigri resting on the finger is the default position when I pay out slack and I don’t consider it dangerous. I have the braking strand in my hand at all times and if the climbing falls my hand goes down in the breaking position (same reaction as with ATC). I feel zero temptation to death grip the Grigri when it’s only resting on my finger (doesn’t feel natural) and I even doubt I would be able to if I wanted.

Petzl disagrees that the default position is keeping the thumb in feed position yet it is common,  just like the old original method was.

My old partner used to whip a LOT and the one time he whipped while I was feeding with my thumb on the cam he fell twice as far. It's amazing how fast the rope ripped through the device. 

A skinny 9.8- rope and a typical ATC feed is not only safer but its also easier if you pay attention IMO 

That belayer should be internationally shamed

L Kap · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 105
M M wrote:

Petzl disagrees that the default position is keeping the thumb in feed position yet it is common,  just like the old original method was.

Grigri "resting on the finger" is not necessariy the same as "keeping the thumb in feed position". The difference is whether your thumb stays constantly on/over the cam, which it should not, no matter where your hand is.

ilya f · · santa rosa, california · Joined Jan 2021 · Points: 0

if you have strong enough opinions to discuss grigri safety on this thread but haven't done the following, please go out and do your own testing. do lead falls at the gym from a safe height, backed up, and try to override it. use a skinny rope and a fat rope, hold the cam with your thumb, grip it with your whole hand, etc. feed it a few basic parameters and see what happens. it's fun and you'll learn a lot. incident-free belaying using the manual's instructions (or not even- most people haven't read it) does not make you an expert. if you want to discuss this, go become an expert first.

Russ Keane · · Salt Lake · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 392

"and try to override it."

Personally I have a hard time understanding how someone's thumb is stronger than the force of a falling human.  

amarius · · Nowhere, OK · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 20
Russ Keane wrote:

"and try to override it."

Personally I have a hard time understanding how someone's thumb is stronger than the force of a falling human.  

Here is this particular GG scenario isolated - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz1PTbjQ3pc

Also relatively often used technique - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YkpZ-_e4mk 

More ways to fuck up with GG - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKe72j_mBlU
One of the scenarios Ben covers is exactly the one in the accident video.

Andrew Rice · · Los Angeles, CA · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 11
Gumby King wrote:

Clearly, the belayer caught the attention of others for poor belaying since they (not the climber) were filmed.  When people see something they should say something.  People get offended if they are corrected but at what cost?

LOL. No, it was caught on film because lots of competitive climbers film EVERYTHING they do in the gym to be able to go back and watch their technique. 

grug g · · SLC · Joined Jul 2022 · Points: 0
L Kap wrote:

It is climber elitism to say that accidents are always the fault of the user, never the gear.

This is why I prefer the ATC Pilot over the grigri for lead belaying.

Okay are you trolling? You don't actually believe this do you? 

Let's ask what the best climbers in the world use? Yep looks like GriGri.

Let's ask what the 20+ year veterans use? Yep looks like GriGri.

What is your argument again? The GriGri doesn't have aesthetic design principles? Or your fingers aren't strong enough to hold it?  

Cherokee Nunes · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2015 · Points: 0

Why does he have to use a grigri again? Because some guys are paid to use it? Pro climbers are mostly billboards for their sponsors.

Sure, hundreds of thousands of users out there, me included. I have a tube-style device on my harness too. I give a reliable, error free (mostly) belay with either device, and a munter too.

Can you?

Peter Czoschke · · Bloomington, MN · Joined Apr 2018 · Points: 1

As someone briefly mentioned, the new Neox removes this failure mode -- there is no need to defeat the cam at any time, it feeds like a dream.  In my gym, the ropes are fat, fuzzy, and sometimes deformed if they are older and being used as TRs too; they jam up a normal GriGri all the time.  The Neox has no problem.  Hopefully no new failure modes have been introduced....

I'll still use my normal GriGri for climbing outside, though.  My personal ropes are skinnier and not deformed, and I can use it to bring up a second (I wouldn't use the Neox on a multipitch).

Brandon R · · CA · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 194
Russ Keane wrote:

"and try to override it."

Personally I have a hard time understanding how someone's thumb is stronger than the force of a falling human.  

If it took the force of a falling climber to override the grigri, then it would be impossible to lower the climber, at least with the lever at its current length. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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