Textbook Bad GriGri belay puts comp climber in hospital

Gumby King wrote:

Clearly, the belayer caught the attention of others for poor belaying since they (not the climber) were filmed.  When people see something they should say something.  People get offended if they are corrected but at what cost?

The camera was stationary—probably on a tripod—filming the climber on the entire route. Where we see the focus on the belayer, that's because the video was cropped in order to highlight the belaying. You can see this when we get the full view of the fall.

grug g wrote:

Okay are you trolling? You don't actually believe this do you? 

Let's ask what the best climbers in the world use? Yep looks like GriGri.

Let's ask what the 20+ year veterans use? Yep looks like GriGri.

What is your argument again? The GriGri doesn't have aesthetic design principles? Or your fingers aren't strong enough to hold it?  

Grigris have some advantages over the Pilot, like the ability to smoothly rappel, to bring up a follower, use in rope ascension, and to hold a hang-dogging climber without slipping and without applying force. One critical category where the Pilot beats the grigri is smooth, ergonomic lead belaying with your full hand on the brake strand and virtually no chance of dropping your climber. For me, that's the argument winner. Others' mileage may vary.

For the record, aesthetics have nothing to do with the design principles I'm talking about. Call it ergonomics, user experience, human-centered design... something that can be used naturally and intuitively by human hands and human brains. The grigri quite glaringly obviously ain't it. Witness all the videos people are posting about devious ways the grigri (or its user) can fail and every technique tip you need to know to avoid it.

And since you mention it, I am a 20+ year climber, and my fingers work reasonably well, thanks.

ETA - if the belayer in the OP had been using a Pilot, the climber would not have hit the ground. It seems to be impossible to keep a Pilot unblocked in a high speed fall. If anyone knows of such a case, please post it. 

I used a BD pilot for my 1st 3 years climbing because of affordability & simplicity in design. I agree that it's very ergonomic. However, I disagree that it's impossible to defeat the device. Next time you're lowering your climber, pull up on the thumb catch like you want to lower them faster. I can guarantee that the rope will zip through your pilot like butter. All you have to do is let go & physics will arrest your climber. Just like the grigri.

I don't care which belay device you're using, how much "muscle memory" or comfortable you are with your belay device. If you're not paying attention to the task at hand & have an inexplicable panic reaction, bad things will happen.

Peter Czoschke wrote:

I'll still use my normal GriGri for climbing outside, though.  My personal ropes are skinnier and not deformed, and I can use it to bring up a second (I wouldn't use the Neox on a multipitch).

Why wouldn't you use the Neox on multipitch? 

Jeremy L wrote:

...

Jeremy, with regard to the Pilot (or Smart, same design), the key here is that the hand positions negate the panic of a belayer by design, should it happen.

When paying out slack and your climber falls, you tense up and bring your hands down. On a pilot this locks up the device. On a grigri you clamp down on the cam harder, and if you don't hold the brake strand, you have defeated the device.

Lowering on the pilot involves rocking the device upwards, which is less good. A panic here could lead you to keep pulling the device back, dropping your climber for good.

The Smart's way to lower is slightly more awkward but safer.

I love how easy it is for almost every thread on the proj to get derailed into grigri good vs grigri bad, it makes me smile.

J L wrote:

...

All assisted braking devices, by design, will automatically arrest a fall if left alone (hence the term "assisted"). It's physics.

When you add a human into the mix, all bets are off. Every device can be defeated. Petzl & BD & edelrid & whoever else can design THE MOST IDIOT PROOF device in creation but there will always be idiots who insist on pushing the envelope.

Like I said, I don't care what device you use as long as you PAY ATTENTION.

ETA - if the belayer in the OP had been using a Pilot, the climber would not have hit the ground. It seems to be impossible to keep a Pilot unblocked in a high speed fall. If anyone knows of such a case, please post it. 

I watched a belayer using a Pilot nearly drop their climber - the climber fell at the top of an 80ft tall route, and the belayer was not holding the brake strand down in the braking position, they were holding it above the plane of the device. The climber fell low enough that they would have hit their belayer had the route not been slightly overhanging, and the only reason the fall was arrested was the rope burned the belayer's hand and he let go with both hands in pain, and then the device locked up. The belayer then had the nerve to loudly complain to everybody in earshot that he wouldn't be able to climb now with rope burn on his hands.

I also saw the aftermath of improper Gri Gri use at my gym about 2 weeks ago when one instructor dropped another instructor from the 7th bolt while teaching kids how to belay. Using the exact same method as the belayer in the video.

I've always been a vocal advocate of reading the owner's manual, learning how the device operates, and learning how to cause it to malfunction, and then having the basic human decency of caring more about the safety of the climber than your own ego when you're wrong about how you've been doing things. And yet people constantly get hurt feelings when confronted with their shitty belay techniques.

Bb Cc wrote:

Pay Attention

Or

Leave it Alone

Which?

Whichever gives you the warm & fuzzies

Despite the 100% belayers fault, the climber can, at the top, as in this scenario, grab the other side of the rope from the anchor and self belay for a bit to verify that the belayer has her. This is what my friend and I came up with years ago, after we watched a leader deck after reaching the anchors. Communicating, checking knots, and systems are all well and good, but it is your life, so this is a good habit especially outdoors. Furthermore, especially in this setting, the random person that comes up and starts distracting the belayer should leave the belayer alone until they are done; they bear some responsibility too.

Henry Lester wrote:

Despite the 100% belayers fault, the climber can, at the top, as in this scenario, grab the other side of the rope from the anchor and self belay for a bit to verify that the belayer has her. This is what my friend and I came up with years ago, after we watched a leader deck after reaching the anchors. Communicating, checking knots, and systems are all well and good, but it is your life, so this is a good habit especially outdoors. Furthermore, especially in this setting, the random person that comes up and starts distracting the belayer should leave the belayer alone until they are done; they bear some responsibility too.

The climber was a kid. The adult bears the responsibility of the whole situation.

cubist A wrote:

Why wouldn't you use the Neox on multipitch? 

I'd worry about backfeeding while bringing up a second.  It happens with the GriGri but isn't terrible.  I imagine it is much worse with the Neox (since that is the whole point of it -- easy feeding when not weighted). The additional effort needed to resist the weight of the rope pulling through the device the whole time is energy not well spent.  I want any device I bring to work with a leader or a follower.

That being said, I admit I have not tried belaying a follower on a long pitch with it.  I believe it is also not recommended by Petzl, though, presumably for the reason I state above.

Russ Keane wrote:

"and try to override it."

Personally I have a hard time understanding how someone's thumb is stronger than the force of a falling human.  

It doesn't need to be.  A new skinny rope, an old grigri, and a hands free belayer are a perfect way to deck.  I have been dropped twice wth this scenario.

Jeremy L wrote:

Whichever gives you the warm & fuzzies

Tesla is coming out with the grigri 4 in partnership with petzl: it will be full automatic zombie mode...

Assisted braking is as reliable as sleeping behind the wheel.

If I'm going to get warm fuzzies I will need a sloped carpeted landing.

Ah, humor

Henry Lester wrote:

Despite the 100% belayers fault, the climber can, at the top, as in this scenario, grab the other side of the rope from the anchor and self belay for a bit to verify that the belayer has her. This is what my friend and I came up with years ago, after we watched a leader deck after reaching the anchors. Communicating, checking knots, and systems are all well and good, but it is your life, so this is a good habit especially outdoors. Furthermore, especially in this setting, the random person that comes up and starts distracting the belayer should leave the belayer alone until they are done; they bear some responsibility too.

I hate it when I'm trying to lower someone and they grab the rope like that.  With no weight on the rope it's awkward to give out slack

Henry Lester wrote:

Despite the 100% belayers fault, the climber can, at the top, as in this scenario, grab the other side of the rope from the anchor and self belay for a bit to verify that the belayer has her. This is what my friend and I came up with years ago, after we watched a leader deck after reaching the anchors. Communicating, checking knots, and systems are all well and good, but it is your life, so this is a good habit especially outdoors. Furthermore, especially in this setting, the random person that comes up and starts distracting the belayer should leave the belayer alone until they are done; they bear some responsibility too.

I agree to some level - its your life - dont just blindly put it into some other human despite how much you trust them.

The most important pro GriGri argument: because it is the standard that most people use with a QUICK GLANCE IMMEDIATELY DETERMINE if there is a set up error or technique error. In just a few seconds of handling you can KNOW that someone is doing the basics wrong or right. You can climb up 5 feet and look down and watch a good execution or not.

 When people are using some fringe mega-pilot-jule-edlerid-giga-smart bullshit you have no idea if their technique or set up is sound. 

grug g wrote:

The most important pro GriGri argument: because it is the standard that most people use with a QUICK GLANCE IMMEDIATELY DETERMINE if there is a set up error or technique error. In just a few seconds of handling you can KNOW that someone is doing the basics wrong or right. You can climb up 5 feet and look down and watch a good execution or not.

It's (the grigri) also evidently the most casually misused belay device. 

 When people are using some fringe mega-pilot-jule-edlerid-giga-smart bullshit you I have no idea if their technique or set up is sound.

FTFY

grug g wrote:

 When people are using some fringe mega-pilot-jule-edlerid-giga-smart bullshit you have no idea if their technique or set up is sound. 

I was at the USAC regional qualifier comp in Boulder today. The climbers and belayers are all instructed that the climbers should clip the anchor draw at the top and jump off, without the belayers taking tight. I don't know if it's the same expectation at the World Cup and/or the national training camp in France (or actually it looks like it was a gym in Switzerland), but if it is, the climber was doing as instructed by the officials / coaches, and the fall should have been 100% expected by the belayer every time.