Textbook Bad GriGri belay puts comp climber in hospital

amariuswrote:

Belayer appears to be right handed - mostly he is feeding the rope using left hand, combination of ATC style and "almost tunnel" - lets go of the rope with his right hand to remove slack.
The outrageous part - he puts his left hand over GG overriding the cam, and then he yards out  a couple of armfuls with his right. I would consider this way worse than the original incident video - Janja is so close to the ground that there is not enough time to react even though she has belayer's complete attention.

I missed that part, all I saw was the "almost tunnel" over and over and over. 

Eric Engbergwrote:

I hate it when I'm trying to lower someone and they grab the rope like that.  With no weight on the rope it's awkward to give out slack

The point about what I said is not about (you) the belayer who, as in the situation under discussion, was not belaying properly. After you have seen someone deck from 60 feet up, you think of ways to protect yourself.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsionwrote:

The climber was a kid. The adult bears the responsibility of the whole situation.

What is it about 100% that you don't understand? I just added a remedy that readers can take or leave, which could complement any number of other things including verbal communication that was possible and called for here, since she said she heard the belayer talking while she was climbing. 

Henry Lesterwrote:

What is it about 100% that you don't understand? I just added a remedy that readers can take or leave, which could complement any number of other things including verbal communication that was possible and called for here, since she said she heard the belayer talking while she was climbing. 

You made a statement saying it was the belayers fault then followed it with a statement about how it was the climbers fault or how the climber could have prevented it.

It’s the same type of statement as “I don’t want to sound racist but ….”

Collin Hwrote:

At least he was wearing that glove...

In all seriousness, that's awful. It should be a good reminder not only to give an attentive and proper belay, but to intervene when we see dangerous belaying. I'm generally not someone who thinks we should have more liability, but this doesn't seem that different from seriously injuring someone with careless or reckless driving.

Seriously! I had this happen to me (on top rope in a small grease factory, no more then 45’) and thinking back on it I was climbing with the gyms team. Well anyways I let go from the top and the person belaying grabbed the atc wrong. I was fine (at 15 you still bounce) but my belayer had rope burns that took at least 3 months to heal enough to climb on, we stayed bouldering friends after that but I’m sure she’ll never forget that sting. Seems like he probably deserved a mandatory time out after that from the climbing gods! That’s criminal negligence 

Some thoughts from Mr. Will Gadd, a climber of some fame. This is link to FB reel, probably going to go away at some point FB reel

I am posting select edited bits first, the whole post is at the bottom.  I highlighted certain statements that I found especially aggravating.

The first response to many accidents is to blame the person closest to the accident. Especially if they didn’t follow stated policies.<...>
Falls in this type of climbing are routine, and even with equally poor belaying 99.99% of the time nothing bad happens.<...>

No, Mr. Gadd, falls of this type - where belayer fucks up due to the disregard of manufacturer's usage recommendations -  are NOT routine. Yes, not all belay mistakes lead to people experiencing life threatening injuries.

I disagree: If the error was so obviously going to lead to an accident, then why didn’t anyone step in to stop it? At least six people who could have done so didnt. In fact, one of the other “experts” distracts the belayer.<...>
This sort of practice/belaying is very common in climbing/work everywhere, and few step in.<...> And I would bet big $ that none of the hindsight heroes would have stepped in either.<...>

No, Mr. Gadd, this sort of belaying is not common especially after "experienced" climbers doing it are getting called out. Can't really speak for other hindsight heroes, but my count of stepping in is, I believe, 3 at this point, and I don't even climb that much.

Blaming/holding the belayer “accountable” for the accident will, sadly, do nothing to get the outcome we all want: to stop the next accident.<...>  If we primarily blame the belayer then we stop learning because we “know” what happened: That guy <...> didn’t follow procedures! Problem solved! Except that “solution” solves nothing for the bad belaying I see regularly, nor the next .01 percent event in any work or recreational setting.<...>

No, Mr. Gadd, unless climbers call out bad belaying techniques nothing is going to change. 

To the belayer, I am so very sorry this accident happened. I can see by your face at the end of the video that you didn't want it to happen, and that you'll live with that error for the rest of your life. <...> [Y]ou didn't intend for this to happen, and yet it did. I have made belay errors at least as bad as the ones you made, but I got lucky that the .01 percent event didn't happen to me, or the people I see doing the same in the gym regularly. To both the climber and the belayer, life isn't fair, and this shouldn't have happened, and I hope we can learn and do better out of respect for you both and this terrible accident. It will take a cultural change, and this this video is maybe powerful enough to help start that.

Yes, Mr. Gadd, this video is, indeed, very powerful - it demonstrates how using unacceptable lead belaying techniques may cause a near fatal accident. No, Mr. Gadd, no climber has respect for this belayer.

The whole post stitched together -

The first response to many accidents is to blame the person closest to the accident. Especially if they didn’t follow stated policies. After this video came out many hindsight experts savaged the guy holding the rope. He should be put in jail,” “Shoot him,” “Idiot.” Falls in this type of climbing are routine, and even with equally poor belaying 99.99% of the time nothing bad happens.

I disagree: If the error was so obviously going to lead to an accident, then why didn’t anyone step in to stop it? At least six people who could have done so didnt. In fact, one of the other “experts” distracts the belayer.

Here’s a more difficult view: This sort of practice/belaying is very common in climbing/work everywhere, and few step in. And I would bet big $ that none of the hindsight heroes would have stepped in either. Few of us do unless we work/play in a good safety culture.

Blaming/holding the belayer “accountable” for the accident will, sadly, do nothing to get the outcome we all want: to stop the next accident. In fact, as Todd Conklin writes, you can either blame, or learn, but not both.  If we primarily blame the belayer then we stop learning because we “know” what happened: That guy was a malicious SOB who didn’t follow procedures! Problem solved! Except that “solution” solves nothing for the bad belaying I see regularly, nor the next .01 percent event in any work or recreational setting. If we don’t learn and change then we don’t prevent future accidents. Our safety culture tolerates bad practices routinely.

For those who want to blame the belayer: Unlike the people on scene, would you have stepped in prior to this accident without knowing it was going to happen? Do you do so now in your work or recreational culture? If so I commend you and your culture, please tell me more! If not why not, and how do we change it? I feel strongly we need to move from a culture of “blame the person closest to the accident” to one of learning and real change. Cont. in comments. 

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Post continued: To the amazing @sara.qunaibet, l am so very sorry this happened to you, and I love watching you literally climbing back. You inspire the hell out of me in a lot of ways. I also respect the courage it took to share your video, and appreciate you letting me share it with a different perspective.

To the belayer, I am so very sorry this accident happened. I can see by your face at the end of the video that you didn't want it to happen, and that you'll live with that error for the rest of your life. Another of Conklin's five principles of is that "Intent Matters", and you didn't intend for this to happen, and yet it did. I have made belay errors at least as bad as the ones you made, but I got lucky that the .01 percent event didn't happen to me, or the people I see doing the same in the gym regularly. To both the climber and the belayer, life isn't fair, and this shouldn't have happened, and I hope we can learn and do better out of respect for you both and this terrible accident. It will take a cultural change, and this this video is maybe powerful enough to help start that.

I also encourage everyone to read and understand the Petzl GriGri use videos. To know them so well that you can confidently help others avoid this type of error when you see bad technique BEFORE the event, not just in hindsight. And if someone gets all wound up at you because you dare bring up a safety concern please blame me, I'm OK with being the safety ass. I am not OK with my culture continuing to tolerate poor technique and then savaging our own on the backside of an event in hindsight.

I don't know Will Gadd but I know of him. While I don't agree 100% with what he says, there are takeaways from his post. If you watch any of his videos, he strikes me as someone who tries to learn from every experience (& he's probably been through a lot). Seems like he's trying to put himself in the belayer's shoes. I'd like to think that I'd never fuck up this bad but how do you move forward after something like this? It's easy for me to watch the video, type my little comment & move on but for the climber AND the belayer, they'll have to deal with the consequences of this event. 1st step would obviously be to take responsibility for the accident but again, i try to put myself in his shoes. I've dedicated my life to this sport, I'm a climbing coach for the French national team, I've caught (probably) a thousand whips in my career & I've never had anything like this happen. Now what?

Mr Gadd, very articulately, is just suggesting some grace & empathy. I also like that he quoted Conklin about blaming & learning. Very zen. Real good way to approach life.

Thanks for sharing

When I read the sentence "Falls in this type of climbing are routine, and even with equally poor belaying 99.99% of the time nothing bad happens", I undertand it to mean that the fall itself (a whip before clipping the anchors) is routine. Which is true.

I'm not sure exactly what is the lesson Will Gadd is saying we should learn. It sounds like he's saying that climbing culture needs to change, and that it's not very helpful to just point a finger at an individual who was acting pretty typically within existing culture. It is true that many folks call out this type of belaying. Nevertheless, this type of belaying is still common, as evidenced by the fact that we're still always talking about it and complaining about it, decades after Petzl's grigri use instructions first warned against it.

L Kapwrote:

It sounds like he's saying that climbing culture needs to change, and that it's not very helpful to just point a finger at an individual who was acting pretty typically within existing culture.

Calling out bad belaying has a noticeable effect. 

Most importantly, it stops normalizing bad belaying. It also makes it more acceptable to step in and point out shortcomings and dangers  of bad belaying.

amariuswrote:

Calling out bad belaying has a noticeable effect. 

Most importantly, it stops normalizing bad belaying. It also makes it more acceptable to step in and point out shortcomings and dangers  of bad belaying.

Yes, I agree. Lots of us agree, and lots of us call out bad belaying. And it still happens frequently. This is the cultural problem that I think we're talking about. 

amariuswrote:

Calling out bad belaying has a noticeable effect. 

Calling out bad behavior brings out the psychopaths. Be careful. 

grug gwrote:

Calling out bad behavior brings out the psychopaths. Be careful. 

Agree, psychos will psycho and it's never pleasant.