New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #34

Colden Dark wrote:

MM nice you have a spring ice season! Up here the skating ends when the snow arrives around Thanksgiving. There are few things in life more fun than skating far and fast on perfect ice. Have you tried Nordic skates instead of hockey skates? Highly recommend .

I have both, depending on conditions and approaches. I've had Nordic skates a few years now and appreciate the fact that I can take them off and walk and the effortless speed from pushing off but I also appreciate the maneuverability of the hockey skates. We keep a few ponds cleared off nearby all winter so it's more consistent than the ski trails are. I do want to get a class 1 ebike with studded tires for the future, that looks fun

phylp phylp wrote:

And then got as far away from a cold and grey climate as I could, moving to Stanford, CA in 1980.  As I got to retirement age, even northern CA seemed too cold to me, hence the move to the LA area.  I love it down here....

It sounds like you've made just the right choices, phylp. Good for both of you.

Vicki and my weather equivalent is living in the Sierra Nevada, high enough to where it snows, which we love. But we live on a county-plowed road and it's only a four mile drive to the highway and then down it to the bottom of the Twain Harte Grade, which is often the difference between snow and none.

Her sister lives in Hermosa Beach and our visits to her often include the urban/cultural things that you mentioned (like the Getty, and... does Disneyland count?).

Brad Young wrote: does Disneyland count?.

Nope. One of my fondest memories of parenting is when my then 3 year old son grabbed my hand on a hot crowded day at the magic kingdom and declared "this is not the happiest place on earth!"

Lori Milas wrote:

Phylp… I love that you do that!  Your pictures are amazing.  Tony is not very mobile so we haven’t been doing a lot of travel. However, last year we went to the Air museum in Palm Springs and had an incredible day. Have you seen the ads for desert X?  It looks like it’s an art exhibit outdoors in Coachella where you drive from point to point. I’m sure we’ll be doing that soon. Keep posting pictures of what you guys do!
—-

I’ve been paying a lot of attention to my WHOOP, after these last few years of use it’s become invaluable to me. With every new version, it has become more accurate with regards to sleep, strain and recovery. Now WHOOP has introduced VO2 Max estimation.

I was already curious about VO2 max because I keep reading that it is the most important measure of fitness and longevity, which is a big claim. And yet no one knows how to measure it.

I have a friend who’s an ultramarathon runner in Texas, he’s in his 70s and also a type one diabetic. About as fit as one could possibly be.  And yet on a recent routine visit with his doctor, he was immediately sent to a cardiologist who determined he has a 70% blockage in his heart. It was the “calcium score“ that gave the data along with a subsequent CAT scan.  So he is now a huge proponent for keeping an eye on your ticker and at least getting some baselines.  

After watching a video of Randy Leavitt climbing Book of Hate… working so incredibly hard and with extreme exertion almost to the point of failure over that crux… I joked with Bob that I felt better about getting that out of breath and working that hard on my routes. Bob said something like not so fast! – – we’re much older than that. We’ve had a few climbers recently drop dead at their peak of fitness. So how hard can we push? How valuable are wearables like WHOOP to stay within some limits?

Better to flame out than rust out. A good way to improve/maintain cardiovascular fitness is by doing intervals on a treadmill and endurance workout on an exercise bike. For intervals a high level of effort for one minute, then two minutes  at relaxed pace.  Repeat.  Over time increase number of intervals as fitness improves.  Check heart rate immediately after the one minute at high effort with goal of reaching "high" level.  The heart rate monitors on the treadmill make this easy.  Get cleared by doctor in advance.  For endurance, start with a resistance level that can be maintained while talking or reading.  Goal is to reach 30 minutes or more and then gradually increase resistance level.  For me, dropping dead while doing something I love is much better than wasting away in a bed.

Idaho Bob wrote:

Better to flame out than rust out. A good way to improve/maintain cardiovascular fitness is by doing intervals on a treadmill and endurance workout on an exercise bike. For intervals a high level of effort for one minute, then two minutes  at relaxed pace.  Repeat.  Over time increase number of intervals as fitness improves.  Check heart rate immediately after the one minute at high effort with goal of reaching "high" level.  The heart rate monitors on the treadmill make this easy.  Get cleared by doctor in advance.  For endurance, start with a resistance level that can be maintained while talking or reading.  Goal is to reach 30 minutes or more and then gradually increase resistance level.  For me, dropping dead while doing something I love is much better than wasting away in a bed.

Thanks, Bob!  I wrote to Whoop this morning to ask how to get a more precise VO2Max, and they sent me this: (which sounds a lot like what you said)

To accurately determine your VO2 Max, the most reliable method is a laboratory test. However, if you have a solid aerobic foundation and experience with intense fitness activities, you can perform a field test. Here's how you can conduct this field test using your WHOOP device:

1. Prepare for the Test:

   • Ensure your body is fully recovered for optimal results.
   • Warm-up thoroughly before beginning the test.

2. Perform the Test:

   • Start a WHOOP activity using the Strain Target feature to record your maximum heart rate during the test.
   • Run for 20 minutes at a moderate to hard pace. If you're a well-conditioned runner, aim to run 5 kilometers (3.1 miles).
   • Pick up your pace in the last kilometer (about half a mile). If you're not running 5 kilometers, increase your pace during the final 3 minutes.
   • For the last 200 meters or the final 30 seconds, push yourself as hard as you can.

3. Record Your Data:

   • The maximum heart rate recorded during the Strain Target session should reflect your absolute max heart rate.

4. Optional Alternative Test:

   • Perform 4 repeats of 2 minutes at maximum effort with a 1-minute rest interval. By the third set, you should be near your absolute max heart rate.

And I agree... I would sure rather flame out than rust.  I'm watching a whole lot of people rust... it doesn't look fun.  

A song I can certainly relate to these days.   Are we not all so much younger now?    

Carl... thanks for not giving up on us.  I would miss you greatly if you decided to stop checking in.  Of course, we could use a little more poetry...  

Ward Smith wrote:

Lori, the S and P is not even down 10% from all time highs.  I wouldn’t panic - yet. 

Lori, we hit the 10% correction level yesterday, so I bought.  One of our retirement accounts is mostly cash.  I put 10% of the cash in the market Wednesday when it dumped, and 10% yesterday when it dumped.  It is up today, but I fully expect that it may go down more, and If so I will buy more.  I have missed out on so much money by NOT being in the in market because I was fearful. "Be greedy when others are fearful, and fearful when others are greedy" - Warren Buffet.

Not investment advice, but if a 10% drop from all time highs causes you to panic, then you should NOT be the market.  If you are going to need that money soon, then you should not be in the market. I am still working, so if it drops 50% (as it could) I do not need to sell anything.  Your mileage may vary. 

.

Ward, good advice. I am not buying the dips now only because I am waiting for larger drops. And I believe we shall see some.

Lori Milas wrote:

Thanks, Bob!  I wrote to Whoop this morning to ask how to get a more precise VO2Max, and they sent me this: (which sounds a lot like what you said)

To accurately determine your VO2 Max, the most reliable method is a laboratory test. However, if you have a solid aerobic foundation and experience with intense fitness activities, you can perform a field test. Here's how you can conduct this field test using your WHOOP device:

1. Prepare for the Test:

   • Ensure your body is fully recovered for optimal results.
   • Warm-up thoroughly before beginning the test.

2. Perform the Test:

   • Start a WHOOP activity using the Strain Target feature to record your maximum heart rate during the test.
   • Run for 20 minutes at a moderate to hard pace. If you're a well-conditioned runner, aim to run 5 kilometers (3.1 miles).
   • Pick up your pace in the last kilometer (about half a mile). If you're not running 5 kilometers, increase your pace during the final 3 minutes.
   • For the last 200 meters or the final 30 seconds, push yourself as hard as you can.

3. Record Your Data:

   • The maximum heart rate recorded during the Strain Target session should reflect your absolute max heart rate.

4. Optional Alternative Test:

   • Perform 4 repeats of 2 minutes at maximum effort with a 1-minute rest interval. By the third set, you should be near your absolute max heart rate.

And I agree... I would sure rather flame out than rust.  I'm watching a whole lot of people rust... it doesn't look fun.  

A song I can certainly relate to these days.   Are we not all so much younger now?    

Carl... thanks for not giving up on us.  I would miss you greatly if you decided to stop checking in.  Of course, we could use a little more poetry...  

Lori, I don't think VO2 max is a really necessary piece of information for most non-competitive people.  Heart rate is a better measure of fitness.  Max heart rate can be estimated by subtracting age from 220, for example:  220 - 70 = 150. Then check resting heart rate. Run/walk on a treadmill at a sustainable pace for 5 minutes.  Check result against this calculator:

  https://goodcalculators.com/heart-rate-calculator/   

As climbers, we should be interested In climbing specific VO2 max, which includes arms and legs. The way V02 max is now measured, you could greatly increase your VO2 max by cutting your arms off. Obviously bullishit.

Mark Frumkin wrote:

Ward, good advice. I am not buying the dips now only because I am waiting for larger drops. And I believe we shall see some.

I tend to be early so you are probably right.  But I have eight more batches of cash to invest so bring it on!

Ward Smith wrote:

As climbers, we should be interested In climbing specific VO2 max, which includes arms and legs. The way V02 max is now measured, you could greatly increase your VO2 max by cutting your arms off. Obviously bullishit.

There have been some studies on VO2 max requirements for climbing. 

It's been a few years since I read them, and it's possible that the research results have changed, but the bottomline was that climbing only requires a very modest VO2 max.

I'm a very mediocre climber, so I'll defer to Ward, Gabe and others wrt best training strategies, but I would guess that improving lactate threshold would be a lot more useful to a route climber than VO2 max.

For overall health, otoh, I would guess there are 4 requisites-

Strength (weight lifting or similar or better yet, bouldering)

Flexibility (yoga, stretching)

Cardiovascular fitness (run, swim, bike or row to improve VO2 max)

and Intellectual (keep that brain doing something beyond posting on MP ;-)

Lori Milas wrote:

Carl... thanks for not giving up on us.  I would miss you greatly if you decided to stop checking in.  Of course, we could use a little more poetry...  

Thanks Lori that means a lot. It is interesting being an outsider. Have you lot heard about one of yours that took a baby wombat from its mother? It’s all over the media. People want her kicked out, which reminds with of the Simpsons episode where they’re in Australia and Bart gets the boot.

https://youtu.be/Pt4mwy9OBNA

Lori Milas wrote:

 Have you seen the ads for desert X?  It looks like it’s an art exhibit outdoors in Coachella where you drive from point to point. I’m sure we’ll be doing that soon.
—-

We love Desert X.  They hold it every other year.  The one we went to in 2023 had one of my favorite pieces ever:

There were a lot of really good pieces that year:

It's so much fun going from site to site, kind of like a treasure hunt!

Read the remainder of the thread listening to music from Lori’s post.   

VO2 max is only really important for high altitude mountaineering. Mine used to be very high, but sport climbing has definitely lowered it a bit along with age, but it never helped me with rock climbing even when I was young. There’s probably some threshold where, “okay I’m above that, I’m good”.

Maybe spend more time working on technique to make it easier to climb? Hard to say not knowing any of your weaknesses?

After a medium route you shouldn’t be out of breath. When you’re at the max, then yeah. But in general should be a relatively “relaxed” workout if that makes sense?

Sport climbing in the gym is great interval training BTW. Just take long rests between climbs.

I've always thought that I was relatively artsy, but in the 2 or 3 times I've toured the Desert X exhibits, I have only really found a few that were interesting enough that I felt should have been built.

Jan Mc wrote:

I've always thought that I was relatively artsy, but in the 2 or 3 times I've toured the Desert X exhibits, I have only really found a few that were interesting enough that I felt should have been built.

It sounds like neither of us appreciate art.   

Ward Smith wrote:

"Be greedy when others are fearful, and fearful when others are greedy" - Warren Buffet.

Buffet seems a little fearful right now (IBD March 14 2025).

"Berkshire was a net seller of stocks for a ninth-straight quarter. Its cash hoard hit a record $334 billion due to strong earnings and stock sales vs. $325.2 billion at the end of Q3.

Berkshire's cash holdings equal about 30% of its $1.1 trillion market cap."

Li Hu wrote:

Sport climbing in the gym is great interval training BTW. Just take long rests between climbs.

I think this is usually called climbing, rather than training

Li Hu wrote:

VO2 max is only really important for high altitude mountaineering. 

How can I say this politely... this is very wrong.

While not determinative, and only one, but perhaps the most significant, factor in longevity, VO2 Max remains very important to overall health. Overall strength (not just upper body), is another very important factor.

In a climbing context, VO2 Max is can be essential for anything but very short efforts.

Drove an AK road today I’ve never driven before - Steese Highway from Fairbanks to Circle. Stopped 75 miles short of Circle at Twelvemile Summit. Had the fattie in the back. Did a short ride but it was blowing 20 and the windchill was well below zero so i didn’t last long. The older I get, the less I have to prove. Alaska’s White Mountains aren’t well known outside of Alaska, but it’s incredible country. Cold and blue.

KM - it’s a wind-scoured range so the road gets drifted in regularly and needs constant maintenance. The only vehicles I saw on the road were 2 graders and a plow. Lonely country for a breakdown in the winter. Be a blast in summer in a rally car…