Discuss Trad Multipitch Gear Selection (other than fall pro)

Guided party multi-pitch on bolt anchors has some differences to a generalized approach.  Rope anchors and quads work well in that scenario.  Guides typically carry a couple more ‘biners and a specific hauling/rescue system too.  I’m not surprised they told you to go a bit heavy.  That’s what they do.  

In a personal climbing scenario, building anchors at rap stations isn’t very necessary for a party of two.  I also dislike rope anchors when there is only one climbing line.  I will use it if I know all the stations are bolted and we’re swapping leads.  The rest of the time I build anchors with sling or cord.  

I think sling anchors are the norm for private parties of two.  Quads work well for two point anchors but the majority of multi pitch involves 3 point anchors.  The pre-tie goes out the window when you run into one.  But since they’re made from a sling or cord, they’re still plenty versatile.  When people say they wouldn’t bring a quad but always bring a triple (or cord) for anchors, the difference is only two knots.  

Mike Cwrote:

I am interested in the universal distaste for a sling anchor on multipitch. Most if not all the online content from accredited mountaineering groups (e.g., AMGA) demonstrates the use of a pretied quad anchor for multipitch rappel transitions.

It is not universal. I've been climbing for over four decades and while I can learn new tricks I still use a daisy chain as a personal tether for multi rap transitions. Why? Because it matches or exceeds the length of my reach. On any rap station I can make room for other people, manage the rope, take a piss, etc. On the occasion I climb with someone who is not similarly equipped it makes me wonder about their planning skills. Just girth hitching a sling for the descent is a poor man's practice imo.

I always use the rope to construct an anchor but in a pinch it is good to know that a daisy is a full strength runner, contrary to popular opinion.

I always carry a Prussik/hollow block with small locker and a 120cm/double with locker.  I can solve nearly any problem with those two.  In OP case these replace the connect and quad and do more things.

The rest depends on the route.

Regardless, before considering weight, tool and skills should match.  If you need it, you need it, so bring it.  A few ounces beats the hell out of a rescue or worse.

Garrett Hopkinswrote:

It’s become very popular to not carry cordalette or a tube style belay device on multi-pitch routes nowadays. I often don’t, but retrieving your belay device from a weighted system can be tricky without the ability to tie a solid friction hitch on the rope.

Not digging at you at all, but I found this ironic. My perspective is that using a cordalette is a "newish" thing, though I had a partner in the 80's who used one. I blame John Long for all these modern anchor building concepts, but they are convenient for guiding new climbers. 

Cheers 

Calebwrote:

This is where the wire gates or ovals make me uncomfortable.  Clipping two ‘biners to a bolt hanger on a tether sounds far worse than a locker.  Hanging an auto-blocking belay device off a wire gate also seems a step too far.  Further, do you need four ovals so you can clove yourself to the anchor, then belay the second?  

I also think the lack of a prussic is edgy.  Sure, we’ve all rappelled simply holding the brake strand.  I’ve also driven without a seat belt.  Once you get to freeing rope, retrieving gear or questing for anchor locations on rappel, some form of auto-stop is very practical.  

Also, belaying every pitch through a tube style just plain sucks.  Especially from above while stacking rope.  Or when the climbing gets hard and the whips add up.  

@Ben Zartman, the premise that single carabiners are observed, therefore safe, is just too close to the edge for me.  Not as an occasional thing, but as a practice.  It lacks redundancy.  A single moment of inattention could be catastrophic.  And the idea that you are experienced so you don’t need a self rescue option is exactly backwards.  The more you do this, the higher likelihood something will go wrong.  

I’m all for trimming weight.  Certainly your gear should cross from rack to rappel.  But there’s a point where the risks indicate preparedness that includes extra equipment.  

Also, we do this for fun.  A few extra comforts sometimes just make multipitch more enjoyable.  Weight vs convenience is a new equation every time.

To be clear, I never have two 'biners on one tether.  One wiregate on a sling for a tether while setting up a rappel; if I want a backup (maybe it's a space station--I rarely bother at stances), I use another sling.  I always have lots of Seamless shoulder-length runners with me.

I've never heard anyone say that not having a prussik is edgy, nor have I or anyone I know used one.  It just wasn't something we did when I started climbing, and I still don't.  It must an affectation of these latter days, like belaying a second straight from the anchor, rather than from the harness with a directional.

I'm not saying my way is better than what's common nowadays, I just guess I'm still stuck in what was considered standard practice when I learned to climb.  Still seems to work for me.

Calebwrote:

Also, we do this for fun.  A few extra comforts items less to carry sometimes just make multipitch more enjoyable. 

FTFY.

Mike C. wrote: Most if not all the online content from accredited mountaineering groups (e.g., AMGA) demonstrates the use of a pretied quad anchor for multipitch rappel transitions. It seems the recommendation is a rope anchor on the way up (something I’m quite comfortable with) and a pre-tied anchor on the way down.

Don't let AMGA (or anyone else) tell you what you are supposed to like. As long as you're safe, you can choose whatever style you want. 

Some people rack their gear on their harness. Others find a gear sling their optimal choice.

Some people carry extra gear in a pack. Others prefer to clip gear to their harness.

Some people are comfy using the rope for an anchor. Others find a cordelette is more convenient.

Some people find a radio simplifying life. Others are happier without.

Some people need a gri-gri. Others like simpler solutions.

Some people prefer using double ropes. Others choose a single rope.

Some people place a cam. Others place a nut.

Some people always belay off the anchor. Others prefer harness or redirect belaying.

Some drive a 2WD stick-shift hatchback to the crag. Others prefer the convenience of a 4WD van.

Some get their post-crush beverage out of a can. Others prefer a bottle.

There are so many choices and alternatives. Nothing is more correct than any other solution. It is simply a personal choice. It's not much use to seek "what most people do". Try out everything and pick and choose in this great buffet of methods/gear. As far as I know, there's only one thing that is an absolute: Anyone racking gates-in needs a serious chat with their therapist. Other than that, anything goes.

I rack gates out on my harness and gates in on my gear sling. Is that allowed or should I seek therapy?

ddriverwrote:

I rack gates out on my harness and gates in on my gear sling. Is that allowed or should I seek therapy?

I ain't no professional, but this look like the classical split-personality disorder. I don't know if this is half good or double worse. Maybe seek a second opinion? Both of you.

ddriverwrote:

I rack gates out on my harness and gates in on my gear sling. Is that allowed or should I seek therapy?

That’s worth its own thread. I’m waiting for this one to get to 8 pages without *too* much thread drift. 

Mike Cwrote:

Hi Guys,

Newer trad climber (~2yrs) but ~9yrs TR, sport, etc. Curious on thoughts about what a "normal" rack for trad / multi-pitch would consist of regarding tether, rappel, belay, anchor building, self rescue, etc. I have a good feeling for what is needed for fall protection, but less about the accessory items. Mostly expecting bolted anchors, but some gear anchors. 

Currently (ignoring the cams, nuts, draws, etc.) I have:

• GriGri & locking carabiner
• Pre-tied quad on 180cm triple length sling & 2 locking carabiners
• Sterling Hollowblock (prussik) & 1 locking carabiner
• Petzl Connect Adjust w/ clove hitched HMS carabiner pre-rigged, for personal tether and extended rappel
• BD ATC Guide & locking carabiner, for two strand rappel and belay backup
• (2) spare locking carabiners
• Chalk bag w/ pouch for phone, snacks, etc.

What I don't carry...

• 30' 7mm cordelette 

This seems like a lot of gear and weight. Is there anything I'm bringing that is too much or not needed? I could skip the GriGri, but it just seems much nicer for guide mode belay (with the option to lower more easily) and lead belay compared to the ATC guide. ATC guide seems to be needed for rappel. 

I would generally skip the Gri-Gri for multi pitch trad.  It's heavier and not as versatile as an ATC guide or reverso I would also skip the quad.  I'm not sure where you're climbing but most of the major trad areas I have been to have some boted anchors but that is generally less than half.  Plan on being able to build your own anchors and for 3-4 piece trad anchors a quad isn't very useful.  I'll occasionally tie one up for a route that has mostly bolted anchors but that's rare. I'd also skip the petzl connect for regular trad climbing. The rope is a stronger and just as adjustable way to tie in.  I tend to have 2 lockers for my ATC guide. 1 on my cordalette. 1 on a double length sling, and 1 spare. I do like a nylon cordalette but I don't know anyone who carries 30'.  I carry about 16 ft.  I like it for rescue, its adj (you can tie it in a loop or as a webolette, it's durable and cheap. The ATC guide can be used to ascend a fixed rope and I also have a hollow block and a prussik

Mike Cwrote:

This gets me down to 4 lockers (from 8). I'm good with rope anchors and that likely covers most cases when swinging leads. I need to remember that at the end of the route, I'll have all the protection gear and draws that can be used for rappel transition needs. 

Additional questions:

1. At what point do you decide to carry more gear for time savings? If I plan to use an alpine draw (or two) for an anchor at bolts, then I have to pay attention to not use them all up on route. Isn't that sort of the same thing as carrying an anchor sling? Rope tether and anchor are efficient from gear use, but makes it tricky if block leading and potentially self rescue needs. I get the premise of repurposing an alpine draw at the end of a climb for tether and rappel extension, but I feel like that chews up a chunk of time to set up on-route for each climb.

For gear you bring, and decisions you make, think of a risk matrix. https://americanalpineclub.org/news/2020/4/8/managing-risk It's all probability and severity. Will I get a scrape today? Probably. Is that catastrophic? no. So yeah, I won’t bring bandaids. Do I think I’m going to need to rescue my partner or be rescued? Once again, unlikely, so I won’t bring extra gear for that like pulleys. I mostly climb 1-3 pitch at the gunks. I’ll bring up the family china sometimes. Short short approaches, lots of climbers, easy access. When I was in red rocks hiking in two hours and then doing 8 pitches? See one other party all day? I didn’t even want to bring two lockers, but what if?.

You save time by actively climbing. Every decision after that is what maximizes time climbing. Could be more gear, could be less. Dial in all your systems. Don’t take 20 minutes to build an anchor. Don’t stop every move to admire the scenery. Keep climbing. Don’t chat at every belay for 5 minutes. Transition quickly, keep moving. If a quad helps you do that, bring a quad. If you’re taking 10 minutes to sort out gear every belay, get a better sorting system, tell your partner to pass the damn gear over, they can snack while you're pulling rope, or bring less, or a combination.

If I’m with a newer climber I’ll bring roughly 15ft of 7mm cord. Making a recognizable anchor soothes wrinkles. I like it’s got a sheath, I want it to last. I’m more wary of sling anchors depending on rock roughness. And I don’t want to untie dyneema knots. With regular partners I'll likely use the rope or alpine draws.

I like 5 lockers. One HMS for rapping with an ATC that lives with the ATC. One for the grigri (bring up your follower like butter) . One for the prussik. One for cloving in to the anchor with the climbing rope. One for rapping down on my rap extension tether I cannibalized  a120cm sling for. I don’t like faffing around  swapping gear to free up a locker.  I don’t need the 5th, but on the last pitch I’ll clove into the anchor before setting up my rap (maybe I used both my 120cm slings) so voila, a 5th locker so that I can set up my rap while still attached to the anchor with my clove. I really don’t need 5 lockers, but it adds margins of safety (rather not use a snap gate on my 3rd hand prussik) and ease of use I like. You can get some dang light lockers these days too. 

Yes, if you plan to use alpine draws for an anchor you need to consider how many you use up on the route. But don’t let that lead you to running it out. Use them as needed, then make an anchor with the climbing rope if you’re out. There’s no panacea to this. Keep on climbing trad, figure out what you like. If you never use something, stop bringing it. If you keep wishing you had something, start bringing it. I carry 4ish spare crabs. Perhaps to clip to nuts, perhaps to clip to the bolts and then use the rope for an anchor because im out of alpines. 

For transitions when block leading using the rope for an anchor, Chapter 24, section D, the magic carabiners. https://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm You can transition quickly. Self rescue may take a smidge more thought, but that sight will cover it. 

Again really appreciate everyone's feedback. Lots of great perspectives here. Set up a hanging anchor/belay station in my basement ceiling and have been testing all the recommended configurations of gear. Started at 25 min for anchor build, belay setup, cleaning, and rappel and now down to 11min. I think it will be much faster if I do the exercise standing vs hanging in free space.

Down to 5 lockers (looking at you @Orion Belt) and having a sling for a bolted anchor seems super convenient especially if considering transitioning to a rappel. I'm all good with rope anchors for intermediate pitches and all gear anchors. I'm weird and enjoy the technical rope work as much as the climbing, maybe even more. 

Also I seem to rack gates in... let's have a fight about it   

I was all about the HollowBlock but after some of the comments here and the subsequent research I think that will be on my short list to replace.

Still loving the Connect Adjust. Will see if it continues to live on the harness on real routes but it makes positioning (especially on a hanging belay) a lot easier. 

I did pick up a used MicroTraxion rather inexpensively for the possibility of some simul on class IV terrain (and honestly just a splurge - whatever, I'm happy). Is there a reason to carry this for a typical climb where I don't expect simul or gear hauling on a tagline? GriGri or ATC guide seem to cover the hauling scenario just fine. Might be a nicer way to ascend a rope rather than a prussik, but is a rather dedicated piece of gear to carry for general purpose use. 

If hauling, the trax is miles superior to an ATC or gri-gri. If I’m not hauling I don’t bring it.  But I do bring it for even a small pack haul.  

Weight savings is as much about the approach as the climb.  Bulk is part of that too.  The Adjust is a relatively bulky and heavy item with only one purpose.  Fine where convenience is most important, but for longer missions it’s hard to justify.  A double sling and rope do everything the Adjust does and you’re already carrying those.

The biggest problem is this gates-in malarkey.  

Mike Cwrote:

Started at 25 min for anchor build, belay setup, cleaning, and rappel and now down to 11min. I think it will be much faster if I do the exercise standing vs hanging in free space.

Oofta, your partners thank you!

Big Redwrote:

Oofta, your partners thank you!

I'm new to multipitch, no doubt. Enjoying all this learning. I can get a 3-4 piece gear anchor up and belay in 5 min or less, obviously room to improve there. The litmus test I'm doing at home to test the gear setups is:

• Start with two "bolts and chains" (2 cams with lockers in between rafters). Full harness of gear
• Start timing, one hand tether to one bolt, completely free-hanging (no hands or feet)
• Set anchor (rope or slings)
• Set Grigri and haul 60m of rope to neat lap coils 
• Thread anchor for rappel, coil (2) alpine footballs, close system at ends of rope, throw rope
• Set-up extended rappel and prussik
• Weight test rappel, then remove tether (bunch of faffing here to get rappel weighted, need to use alpine draw(s) as a ladder) 
• Clean anchor (if using slings) 
• Rappel to floor (3'  )
• Pull rope free
• Stop time

Obviously this is just an exercise but it is forcing me to think about the gear I'm bringing, what I use, what is excess, etc. It also lets me compare improvement in efficiency. I'm going to time a standing belay for time and bet I can easily do the exercise in <8 min. 

Dan Mydanswrote:

I would generally skip the Gri-Gri for multi pitch trad.  It's heavier and not as versatile as an ATC guide or reverso I would also skip the quad.  I'm not sure where you're climbing but most of the major trad areas I have been to have some boted anchors but that is generally less than half.  Plan on being able to build your own anchors and for 3-4 piece trad anchors a quad isn't very useful.  I'll occasionally tie one up for a route that has mostly bolted anchors but that's rare. I'd also skip the petzl connect for regular trad climbing.

Gri Gri's are useful in many situations for trad climbing, and just ropework in general. Particularly if the rope gets stuck. Any "auto-locking" (or semi or whatever) device is useful, it doesn't have to be a Gri Gri. 

A "quad length" (240cm) dyneema sling is nice for trad climbing. You can equalize 3 or 4 pieces easily. For me it is rare to use a "quad" (two limiter knots tied in a doubled over 240cm sling) configuration while ascending. For rapping on bolts with small ledges a quad can be nice. If the pitch isn't a rope-stretcher I build my anchor with the rope. If I'm swapping leads, I like to build anchors with a 180cm sling or maybe one / two 120cm slings. 

An adjustable tether can be useful if your anchor pieces are spread on a hanging belay or if any anchor shenanigans are necessary. I always clove in, but it's nice to have temporary options. It's useful for rapping. It can be used to go in direct if it's hard to communicate take to your belayer. Useful for aiding through a section. Would be useful if something happened to the rope. As a follower it can help for cleaning pieces. Check out Dave Searle's video on why he likes having one on alpine climbs. Again, this doesn't have to be a petzl connect, which is a heavy device for the task. I use a sling, but if tha connect is what you have and what you like then go for it.

These items have their place.  

Mike Cwrote:

I'm new to multipitch, no doubt. Enjoying all this learning. I can get a 3-4 piece gear anchor up and belay in 5 min or less, obviously room to improve there. The litmus test I'm doing at home to test the gear setups is:

Ah I see, you're making this way more difficult than it normally would be! Nice job practicing, that's not a bad time. Much more realistic things to time would be how long does it take between arriving at a 2-bolt stance on lead and putting your partner on belay, and between arriving at the anchor as a second before you start off on the next lead. And how long does it take you to arrive at a rappel station before you start your next rappel. All of these should be under 2-3 minutes in simple scenarios.

Scott Dwrote:

Gri Gri's are useful in many situations for trad climbing, and just ropework in general. Particularly if the rope gets stuck. An "auto-locking" (or semi or whatever) device is useful period, though it doesn't have to be a Gri Gri. 

An adjustable tether is useful if your anchor pieces are spread out or any anchor shenanigans are necessary. I will always clove in as well, but it's nice to have temporary options. It's useful for rapping. It's great if you need to take but it's hard to communicate with your belayer. Need to aid through section? Super useful there. It's useful if something happens to rope. As a follower if there's a very hard to clean piece but you want to avoid loading the rope over an edge it's great to use your tether. Check out Dave Searle's video on why he really likes having one on alpine climbs. Again, this doesn't have to be a petzl connect but if that's what you have and what you like then I say go for it. 

A quad length sling is awesome for trad climbing. It's very rare that I would use it in a "quad" configuration while ascending but it is quite useful in a quad configuration for rapping on complex terrain with bad stances. I'll build my anchor with the rope if the pitch doesn't eat all my rope and I know I'm swapping leads, but there are lots of times that isn't the case or it's not clear if it will be the case. Personally, I prefer a 180cm sling over a 240cm sling. 

By all means I can trad climb without these items, and I still often do, but they certainly have their place. 

I will use a Gri Gri for single pitch trad but for multi pitch it's just another thing to carry.  I do always have each climber have their own gri gri for big walls since it works well for a back up while jugging, cleaning pendulums and rapping single fixed lines. I'm not sure what you mean by it being helpful for a stuck rope? Please explain.

A Quad length sling is just a different style of anchor material.  I was mostly saying having a pre tied quad style anchor is not very useful for trad climbing and is better for a 2 bolt station.

We can agree to disagree on the adj tether.  To me it's redundant and heavy and doesn't do anything that I can't do with something else I have on my rack. Of course I do have adj daisy chains for walls but never use them for regular trad climbing.  Obviously there are multiple ways to do things safely.  I'm probably in the trad dad categories at this point since I have been trad climbing for 30 years and guiding for 20 but I am always amazed at how much stuff people bring that they don't really need.  I was always taught to carry the least amount of gear possible to do the route safely. Speed and efficiency are ways to be safe. To the OP I would suggest trying out a few different systems and see what works best for you in the places and types of routes you are climbing.  I will also admit that I will sometimes change my set up depending on the area. For example when a buddy and I did crimson chrysalis in red rocks a couple years ago (9 pitch trad climb with all bolted anchors and the descent is that you rap the route.)  For that I had a sterling chain reactor for the rappels but it was buried in the bullet pack for the climb and then I used it as a tether for the descent. For big routes with a bunch of rappels it was nice to have a tether but for a route with limited rappels it isn't necessary.  It's funny to me how opinions on gear and techniques have changed over time.  In the nineties crack gloves were considered cheating and you'd get laughed at if you used them but now they are fine.  Radios used to be the calling card of the noob but people seem to love the rocky talkies.  Figure out what works for you and have fun.

I've noticed a transition in what I carry over the decades. Originally I carried a lot less not because I was trying to be light but because I didn't own much kit, I learnt to get by with what I had. As my income went up so did my rack weight and I feel I forgot a lot of the tricks I had picked up. More recently as I've got older my tolerance for lugging a heavy pack on long mountain approaches has definatly declined so I'm trying to pare down.

A lot depends on who I'm climbing with if its someone I know I'll be swapping leads with every pitch then I will cut pack on slings and just use the rope to build belays this can help reduce weight, being British I tend to be on 2 half ropes which really lends its self to using the rope. If I'm gong to be doing all or most of the leading then I take 2 120 slings, one each for top and bottom of pitch. Never even seen a bolted belay so quad type set up not advantagous really.

Also think hard about where you really need a screwgate/locker and where a snap is perfectly fine. Another obvious now trick but one that took my limited brain surprisingly long to figure out is to use my 'bail crabs' to build belays and not have them stuffed in my pack with my bail tat.

When it comes to bail kit there is an argument in not bothering when on a route well within your capability (where it is very unlikly you will need it) and acepting that if you mess up and do for some reason need it you will have to sacrifice some 'proper' kit. That up to the individual I suppose.

Never carried more than one belay device but have had to do everything with munters and other work arounds when a less experienced partner has forgotten to bring theirs so been using mine.

For those who claim that rope anchors are only suitable when swapping leads (several mentioned in this thread), I suggest to open your minds and do your homework (or at least stop spreading this false and persistent rumour). There are several different styles of rope anchors (who would have thought??!!), some of which work nicely when leading in blocks.   #ifyoureallywanttoditchyourcord