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Discuss Trad Multipitch Gear Selection (other than fall pro)
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Hi Guys, Newer trad climber (~2yrs) but ~9yrs TR, sport, etc. Curious on thoughts about what a "normal" rack for trad / multi-pitch would consist of regarding tether, rappel, belay, anchor building, self rescue, etc. I have a good feeling for what is needed for fall protection, but less about the accessory items. Mostly expecting bolted anchors, but some gear anchors. Currently (ignoring the cams, nuts, draws, etc.) I have:
What I don't carry...
This seems like a lot of gear and weight. Is there anything I'm bringing that is too much or not needed? I could skip the GriGri, but it just seems much nicer for guide mode belay (with the option to lower more easily) and lead belay compared to the ATC guide. ATC guide seems to be needed for rappel. |
Mike C wrote: You're right that it's a lot and you're right to start thinking about paring down. The first thing you can do, without changing any of your systems, is count how many lockers you have (8). Are all of those really being used at once? You likely don't need the two spares considering how many others you have floating around. The next thing I'd consider potentially redundant is the Connect Adjust. You could eliminate it and tie in with the rope. For rappelling, you'd then have several options. You could either do without a rappel extension (if that feels safe to you; it does for me). Or you could edit your pretied quad from a triple to a double and use the double as an anchor sling on the way up and a rappel extender/tether on the way down. You can also tether to the rappel anchors with alpine draws. Then consider only taking one belay device. Yes, the flexibility of two devices is nice. But having less stuff on your harness is also nice. Try picking one. You can belay just fine with an atc, or you can carabiner block rappel with the grigri. Learn the munter as a backup if you drop your device (but just don't drop it). |
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I often don't bother with a quad and use instead either a single locking biner on the chains or if there are no chains a locker quickdraw to connect both bolts (assuming bolted anchors; gear anchors a whole other issue). Then the locker quickdraw can be used as the rappel extension on the way down, and one of its locking biners goes directly on the ATC. For tether I just use a purcell prusik which has only one biner on it. |
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You have way too many lockers which add weight fast. Carry one locker on your GriGri, and one locker for your tether. Use non-locking for the rest, switching the GriGri locker to the ATC when rappelling. Get rid of the quad, you can easily tie an anchor on bolts using the rope, a single locker if there are chains, or a single-length alpine draw (clove hitch masterpoint, figure-8/overhand on a bite, etc.). A multipitch anchor does not need to be connected to the bolts with lockers, as it is a supervised anchor (someone will always be at the anchor while it is in use). You can also cut out the Petzl Connect and tie in with a clove hitch. You can then rig a PAS/rap extension with slings from your alpine draws when it's time to rap. Final Gear List:
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Thanks much for the thoughts. It was feeling like a lot of gear and everything you said makes sense. The GriGri seems to be the logical starting spot as it feels like a boat anchor compared to a lot of the light trad gear. I bet you're right I can ditch a lot of the lockers too. I'd have to play a game of using as few as possible on a climb, adding one, and ditching the rest. I have a bit of love of the Connect Adjust since it takes some complication out of the situation where you're pulling the rope to set a rappel at the end of a climb. Maybe a double or triple length sling would be a bit lighter, but the adjustability really is nice for making sure you can properly weight the rappel before committing to the system. That was the issue that pushed me towards the Adjust in the first place. I do not have comfort with a knot / carabiner block on a rappel, perhaps that's something I need to work on, so only having the GriGri would be uncomfortable to me. The HMS / munter is something I've practiced but would not enjoy requiring in practice. Thoughts on cordelette vs triple length sling for the quad? I don't love the bulk of the cordelette if not needed. |
Mike C wrote: Do not use a quad and skip both |
Mike C wrote: Quads don't make much sense for trad, they're really best for sport. Take the triple length sling as anchor material and abandon the quad for trad. |
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Agree with most of what folks have already said, especially the amount of lockers you carry. I like to have four on me, and will often have three in use. If going with less, you can make use of two non-lockers in a pinch and you'll always have plenty of those around l. I also like having an ATC and a ABD, though, so got a stitch plate style device to replace the ATC for long multi-pitch. I have the Camp Ovo, but the Kong Gigi is another. Much lighter and low profile than your standard ATC, can be used for all the same applications, but they do have some specific safety considerations to get used to. |
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Pick one belay device - both can be used to belay and rappel (learn how to biner block rappel with the gri gri), no reason to bring a backup. Learn how to tie a munter in case you drop your device. For bolted anchors you don't need an equalized master point - you can just clip a draw between them. Learn how to use what you already have on you for self rescue. For an average multipitch with bolted anchors, all you really need is one belay device and one locker to clove with. Everything else is nice to have: personally, I like having an adjustable PAS and it's worth the weight for me. If the anchors aren't bolted, I like carrying a longer sling but if you're swinging leads you can just build anchors with the rope. |
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Yes you can ditch the Grigri for a multipitch like folks are saying, but my elbows feel markedly better at the end of the day if I've belayed with a Grigri instead of an ATC-Guide, or even a Gigi/Ovo. IMO it's one piece of gear well worth its weight. Maybe not on some huge alpine climb, but for just about any rock route anywhere I bring a Grigri unless I'm belaying two followers. For rappelling you can either fix the rope a halfway and then the first person raps on a Grigri, second person un-fixes the line and raps on an ATC, or you can put the ATC on both strands as usual which functionally fixes the strands and the first person raps on a Grigri. Skinny ropes can still slip a little bit in this configuration so the second needs to be mindful of holding the ropes. If you do the first person on a Grigri, second person on an ATC rappel set-up you still only need two belay devices on the team. If you want a ABD for belaying the leader then throw a BD Pilot/Mammut Smart onto the harness (but it doesn't need it's own carabiner, just use the one you'll use with the ATC when rappelling). |
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For multi pitch and alpine: Grigri + locker AlpineUp + locker 180cm sling + locker Usually a 120cm aramid sling on a non-locker I prefer belaying with a Grigri from above, it feels easier on my shoulders and a Grigri is excellent for different self rescue needs so I always carry one. The AlpineUp is a 2-channel belay device and I carry it because I can rappel very fast and very smooth with it. It's not at all necessary but I like it. The 180cm sling is for anchors. The aramid sling can be used as a tether (I usually just clove hitch myself with the rope), as a spare runner, or a foot loop that easily unties after loading. I've used the 120 a number of times now to help ascend a rope and since it serves multiple functions, I like to carry it. |
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I think the only things I carry on every route are a grigri and two carabiners, usually one locker and one nonlocker.Things I never carry (without a highly specific reason) are any anchor materials, or rappel backup materials. After years of being a 'use the rope' guy, I'm actually coming around on the petzl connect thing. They're just so convenient. If I'm climbing a route with gear anchors and a walk off, I skip it, otherwise I will have it. |
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Alright, thanks everyone for all the feedback. For my own benefit let me see if I can summarize and average out the feedback so far...
So I think I'll try cutting down to the following... Obviously lots more room to cut, but I have to get comfortable with having less. BTW, I have the same issue cutting weight with backpacking. Grew up with a what if mentality that leads me to want to bring the kitchen sink.
This gets me down to 4 lockers (from 8). I'm good with rope anchors and that likely covers most cases when swinging leads. I need to remember that at the end of the route, I'll have all the protection gear and draws that can be used for rappel transition needs. Additional questions:
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Ditch the pre-tied quad. When not using the rope for anchors, I carry 2x 120cm dyneema slings and use alpine draws, which will get you through even the most convoluted trad anchors. Like everyone else says you have way too many locking carabiners. I always carry a GriGri even on long alpine climbs where weight is a priority. It just has so much utility for self-rescue and descending. There are many common situations you'll run into where having a GriGri turns a huge clusterfuck into a no-sweat situation (ascending a rope, lowering a follower in guide mode, rappelling with a load, etc). You're missing a knife. Either on your harness somewhere or in your chalk bag, not in a backpack. You almost never need it but when you need it, you really really need it right that instant. |
Mike C wrote: No need to make it a big chunky HMS - this is only for the unlikely case that you drop a device. A normal sized locker will do (just don't carry only micro-lockers).
I only consider a cordo if I'm adventure climbing and might need to bail, or if I'm leading in blocks on trad anchors.
Only needed for an ATC. For self rescue you can use alpine slings.
No need for a dedicated anchor sling. If you're building gear anchors, use a 120cm sling since you're likely carrying that for extending pieces anyway or just use the rope. And 120 is a better size for a footloop for ascending anyway. Or if you're out of 120s then clip 2 60s together.
For me, gear that's not the bare minimum makes sense when it makes my life easier, as opposed to carrying a dozen things for "just in case" scenarios. The PAS is one that I find to be very convenient with fixed anchors and multiple rappels - I would rather not fuss with girth hitched alpine slings, and adjustability is really nice for a variety of stances. I've climbed a ton without it and I've decided that it's often worth the weight. To answer your question about keeping an alpine draw on you for the anchor... odds are good that you're not using every single alpine sling on every pitch. And in the case that you're block leading and you do climb a long pitch and are out of slings (see how this is an unlikely combination of events?), then use the rope and take 10 seconds to connect the bolts with an alpine draw when your second arrives. That being said, if a dedicated 120cm sling is convenient for you then don't let anyone tell you otherwise - the point is to try with and without and decide what you prefer. |
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if im bringing an atc for rappel, i bring a prussik. otherwise no. personally i do use a cord if i'm doing a lot of harder pitches -- block leads with a rope anchor suck. if im bringing a lot of stuff, i just make the follower wear a small pack. doesn't impede the leader and not that hard to switch. personally, I feel making an alpine draw into a rappel extension is just not that slow. it probably takes a couple per route, and if I'm doing a multipitch route, I doubt I'm going to do this more than three times in one day. |
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I purposefully do not use any belay/rappel devices that aren't ABD, i.e. I don't carry an ATC with me that would need a prussik. If I wanted to go super light, I'd take my megajul and rap with that since it auto locks if you set it up in that mode. EDIT: If it's multi pitch or alpine, I carry a VT prussik + knife + lighter. I do however carry an aramid sling that, if needed, can serve as a prussik. In the event of an emergency where I needed to do a simul-rap with an injured partner, i would backup my auto locking rappel device with that sling as a prussik to provide extra control/stopping power. |
Mike C wrote: It's not a bad idea to have a lightweight HMS-style carabiner on your harness for misc uses, they aren't that heavy and can be handy. Just use one in one of the positions you're already carrying a locker, such as on your personal connection to the anchor or prusik or whatever. It doesn't make much sense to use this for the Grigri.
I don't see why this would be the case. You have multiple better options for rappelling and lowering before you'd need to resort to carabiner blocks.
I carry a cordelette fairly regularly. People love to be anti-cord, and you definitely don't *need* one, but on the flip side the idea that a short piece of cord is going to make or break a climb is kinda silly. You did mention "30 ft of 7mm cordelette" in your OP, that much cord would be a pretty crazy amount to carry. More typical is like 12-15 feet, often 6mm if weight is important.
If you don't carry a prusik, how are you going to perform the basic self-rescue tasks that a multipitch climber should know? Basic load transfers to baseline, basic ascension and descending, etc. I carry a small "rescue kit" that lives on the back of my harness and never comes out unless something weird happens. One small lightweight locker, a prusik cord, ~8 ft of 6mm nylon cord, and a small knife. Some people also carry a Tibloc with a kit like this. This is enough to perform basic self rescue, especially in scenarios from the top anchor if you've used all your alpine draws and slings on the previous pitch. A typical alpine multipitch rack for me would look something like this:
I don't carry a tether like the Connect Adjust for a typical route, but I will bring one if it makes sense, such as a route where there are a ton of raps with weird stances, or I need to tether in separate from the rope like doing fix-and-follow. Normally, I just use one double length (120cm) sling off the rack as my rappel tether. I think being simple and streamlined is very useful, but people can go overboard and make it a contest to see if they can brag about bringing the smallest number of things. |
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Here’s my full spray-down, it’s mostly on target. My PAS is a nylon sling girthed and tied in the middle. Standard, cheap, not very adjustable but it’s light! I always carry a prussic. It’s just a loop of 6mm cord tied with an EDK. Very handy for self rescue and bail tat. It’s surprisingly rare for me to need a knife on multipitch. I recently started just carrying a razor blade. I haven’t needed that yet, so we’ll see how much I regret it. Carabiners vary based on the climb. I like 3 or 4 lockers total (one is a magnetron for my PAS) and sometimes an ultra-light wire gate or two. Some of the new lockers are very light. I have been carrying both a grigri and an auto-tube. The Gri-gri is very heavy, but incredibly versatile, and I prefer it for lead belay. I also bring a nano-trax on some climbs. It’s such an easy top belay and dreamy for hauling a pack. I know it has problems. Not for everyone. Smaller climbs or ones with less tech approach/descent, I bring a Bindi headlamp. I have various larger lamps that I might take based on the mission. And I really like the squeezy water bags. I have sizes from 250ml up to 6L. Over 750ml you can get them with filtration, which adds weight and complexity but can mean carrying a lot less water. It’s worth mentioning the rack. I don’t want all my slings to be dyneema, I like light cams, small nuts, and super light carabiners. I don’t put two ‘biners on all my slings, and I avoid niche gear like tri-cams/hexes, offset cams, larger cams and an excess of slings. I’m usually slightly cam heavy and thin on everything else. I’m a pretty stylish guy. My zip-off pants are the envy of many climbers from Portrero to the Diamond. It’s all about looking good. I used to accessorize with a buff or a hanky-mullet for my neck, but I sacrificed fashion for a sun-hoody a few years ago. Good approach shoes are a game changer. Light but comfortable and pretty compact = LS tx3. 60m tag/rap line. Why did I wait so long to buy this!?! Climbing Shoes: All day tolerability. I often climb in socks but I’m stylish, so they’re toe socks. If I really need the technical ability of an uncomfortable, tight shoe, I prefer an easy-to-remove velcro shoe. I can cram socks into my TC’s and my Otaki’s. The Instinct Velcro is my try-hard shoe but sucks pretty bad to put on or take off at a hanging belay. Rocky Talkies? Yes, but they’re so heavy!!! I do snacks/electrolytes every 45 but I hear Keto is the way to go. Paper topo. Your phone is heavy. I don’t have an In-Reach. But maybe I should. Tape, nitrile gloves, Ibuprofen, Imodium, Pepto, Oxycodone, safety pin, sugar. If you need more First Aid than that, YGD. Tin whistle, cake, etc… |
Mike C wrote: While not "necessary", you'll change your mind when you start encountering situations where it helps ease the fear, like the first time on friction slab where you're looking at a 40' runout to the next bolt. |
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In my case, replace all the following with two prusik cords.
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