Rappelling without extension

Bob Gaineswrote:

As one of the coauthors of the AMGA SPI textbook (with Jason Martin) and the one who did the flipping upside down testing with the leg loop backup, I think the important thing, from an instructor's standpoint, is to be able to teach the pros and cons of both methods effectively. For a more secure backup, it's important to extend the rappel device, so that even if you go unconscious and flip upside down, the autoblock will still engage.

That being said, the autoblock method I use most often is simply off my leg loop. But it's important to customize the rigging (some leg loop buckles are easily defeated with a slight pull). I use the smallest locking carabiner available and rig the autoblock with a 3 ft 9 in section of 6 mm nylon cord (tied with a double fisherman's). But there are many other options (like the hollowblock). It's important to dial in your system based on your harness.

The 2014 AMGA Manual is a bit outdated. For a more updated chapter on rappelling safeguards and backups, check out Rock Climbing: The Art of Safe Ascent (2021) or How To Rock Climb, 6th Edition (2022) which I coauthored with John Long.

Hey, Bob,

As someone who recommends educational resources to newer climbers frequently is there a reason you would recommend one over the other, or what are the differences between these two books exactly?

Also will there be an updated SPI manual at some point? Lots of people seem to want to use that as a reference. 

Cheers!

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Hey, Bob,

As someone who recommends educational resources to newer climbers frequently is there a reason you would recommend one over the other, or what are the differences between these two books exactly?

Also will there be an updated SPI manual at some point? Lots of people seem to want to use that as a reference. 

Cheers!

Both have similar content. For newer climbers I'd recommend How To Rock Climb, 6th edition. It's very comprehensive and the most up to date (416 pages with over 500 photos).

Bob Gaineswrote:

Both have similar content. For newer climbers I'd recommend How To Rock Climb, 6th edition. It's very comprehensive and the most up to date (416 pages with over 500 photos).

Appreciate you, Bob. Thanks!

perhaps we should promote "not flipping upside down when we are rapelling." think of all the lives that could be saved.

slimwrote:

perhaps we should promote "not flipping upside down when we are rapelling." think of all the lives that could be saved.

Haha.  A person knocked unconscious by rockfall isn't in a position (to coin a term) to enact such a precaution.  And I've twice seen an inexperienced person rappelling from an unavoidably low anchor slip and invert.  They didn't have an autoblock and didn't die because this was in the days before autoblocks when not letting go with the brake hand was a matter of life and death drilled into novices.  Nowadays the brake hand is rather more optional and beginners can and do let go, often just because they are swinging a little and they put the brake hand out to keep from bumping into the wall.

Maybe folks should decide what exactly their autoblock backup is for.  Is it so you can easily go hands-free to untangle the rope or scrub moss from an overhang?  Or is the purpose to prevent loss of control if the rappeller is rendered unconscious?  What rigging you consider appropriate depends to some extent on the answer.

I might add that the now more standard extended rappel has the autoblock managed by the non-brake hand.  This means that if something knocks your brake hand off the brake strand, or if in some panic situation, you let go with the brake hand, the autoblock is unlikely to function because the natural panic reaction to grip the rope with the other autoblock-managing hand will guarantee that the autoblock slides down with the falling rappeller.  This failure mode can be corrected by keeping the non-brake hand above the autoblock rather than gripping it, pushing the autoblock down the heel of the hand.  There's a lot of electronic and print information out there that doesn't mention this, nor does most of it clarify what the autoblock is really supposed to do.

The autoblock-on-a-leg-loop-rap-device-on-the-belay-loop, in spite of its other failure modes, does not have the particular issue of the autoblock not functioning if the brake hand is removed, because in this configuration it is the brake hand that manages the autoblock.

RG you can al so get your 5mm or 6mm cord dialed to the perfect length for your setup and do an extra wrap so that  it may be a little bit  annoying to rappel with but it will not fail. I do extra wrap whenever i think the  rappel may be dangerous for whatever reason. 

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Hey, Bob,

As someone who recommends educational resources to newer climbers frequently is there a reason you would recommend one over the other, or what are the differences between these two books exactly?

Also will there be an updated SPI manual at some point? Lots of people seem to want to use that as a reference. 

Cheers!

Yes, it's definitely time for an update. Should happen in the next year or two.

Eric Mosswrote:

I've been comfortable with the leg loop backup, since it's in the single pitch manual, but I'm reconsidering that position.(...)

That's the only reason I posted the pic from the manual. So other people can see what the OP had read. The whole 3/4 invert tests failing thing... and him still being comfortable because it was in the book... yeah. Does not compute. At least he is reconsidering.

J Ewrote:

Not read through all this so it may have been stated, but:

If you want a non-extended rappel with the safety of a third hand (w/o the drawbacks of attaching via the leg loop) just use an alpine up

That's a weird way to spell grigri, Jared... :P

Brent Kellywrote:

That's a weird way to spell grigri, Jared... :P

Well. If you want all the things I said plus not have to lug around a tagline or do a biner block lol

Benefits of the leg loop third hand:

- It works somewhat

- You get to prove to everybody that you've been climbing since the 80/90's, before it was cool

Benefits of the extended rappel, third hand off belay loop

- It work almost all the time

- It makes multi-rappels simple, depending how you set it up, utilizing it as a tether

- Less likely for hair to get caught in an extended device

- Easier for going over overhangs or lips

- Basically any third hand works, no need to get specific other than rope diameter. 

Eric Mosswrote:

I was contemplating an old rgold post in a thread about rappel extension, saying he knew of a death where the leg loop backup was used

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/110976538/backing-up-rappells-who-does-it?page=11

I've been comfortable with the leg loop backup, since it's in the single pitch manual, but I'm reconsidering that position.  On the one hand, it is easier to test and verify the rig without the faff of extension.   On the other hand, it seems that if the leg loop backup were to suddenly and strongly engage, it could contribute to flip me upside down.

So here's my idea for rappel without extension, but also without the additional risk from the leg loop backup.

I've threaded the cord through both tie-in points and tied with an offset overhand bend.  You could also use a soft shackle.

I have been looking at this picture and realized ,your belay device seems threaded on the wrong side. If you pass your rap station would you not want to use the device to help ascend the rope?

Will Mwrote:

Benefits of the extended rappel, third hand off belay loop

- Less likely for hair to get caught in an extended device

Idk about you, but the extension brings the device much closer to my hair.

Agreed, catching hair is more likely with the rap extension.  Catching clothing is more likely with the device on the belay loop.

Walt Peterswrote:

I have been looking at this picture and realized ,your belay device seems threaded on the wrong side. If you pass your rap station would you not want to use the device to help ascend the rope?

if you weigh 145 lbs *(like me), the high friction mode sucks for the first 50 ft. makes the rap jerky.

if you want to orient your device so you can clip it back to you in guide mode, i would highly suggest you start with an extended device. 

curt86irocwrote:

if you weigh 145 lbs *(like me), the high friction mode sucks for the first 50 ft. makes the rap jerky.

if you want to orient your device so you can clip it back to you in guide mode, i would highly suggest you start with an extended device. 

Fair enough.  Maybe you need thinner rope?

rgoldwrote:

Agreed, catching hair is more likely with the rap extension.  Catching clothing is more likely with the device on the belay loop.

Catch 22!

Walt Peterswrote:

Fair enough.  Maybe you need thinner rope?

Maybe, but the main criterion should be catching lead falls.  Rappel systems can adjust to fatter ropes, starting with low-friction mode (that's what it's for).  I would much rather ascend on 2 prusiks after passing a rap station than be belayed on a rope thin enough for light climbers to rappel on in high-friction mode.  If the ascending method they now teach is causing ATC users to climb on thinner ropes where a fat rope would otherwise work, that's putting the cart before the horse.

Tradibanwrote:

Catch 22!

That’s some catch!

Just to update: I'm still using the method with the third hand helical knot through the tie in points tied with an edk - just have to ensure the edk is nice and tight.  I'm loving it, and I carry one fewer biner which bumps me up three grades to 5.4.

I played around with the surgeons knot instead of edk, but the surgeons knot deforms and doesn't inspire confidence.

I've seen people extend the device with an extra locker, i thought that was pretty slick too