Rappelling without extension

I was contemplating an old rgold post in a thread about rappel extension, saying he knew of a death where the leg loop backup was used

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/110976538/backing-up-rappells-who-does-it?page=11

I've been comfortable with the leg loop backup, since it's in the single pitch manual, but I'm reconsidering that position.  On the one hand, it is easier to test and verify the rig without the faff of extension.   On the other hand, it seems that if the leg loop backup were to suddenly and strongly engage, it could contribute to flip me upside down.

So here's my idea for rappel without extension, but also without the additional risk from the leg loop backup.

I've threaded the cord through both tie-in points and tied with an offset overhand bend.  You could also use a soft shackle.

I thought the backup would just bind against the atc if you did it this way?!?!

This has probably been posted but here is an excellent resource on this subject: 

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/the-extended-rappel-explained

This seems like a lot of work to avoid an extension. 

I suggest you actually get into your setup and play around with it for a while. It should become obvious what the drawbacks are.

Ben Ha wrote:

I thought the backup would just bind against the atc if you did it this way?!?!

No, because the belay device is already extended from the belay loop.  Extension = biner + belay loop.  If you keep the friction hitch close to the tie in points by tying it in directly, then it should stay out of the way.  

Ben Podborski wrote:

This seems like a lot of work to avoid an extension. 

I like to test my rappel twice before committing.  A shorter connection allows me to easily reset my rappel for the second test. 

 I believe this will save me time over extending a rappel, since I don't use a pas.

Eric Moss wrote:

 I believe this will save me time over extending a rappel, since I don't use a pas.

Well, timer is the ultimate decider. Do the test and see for yourself?  I suggest you do a real test - that is hanging with your weight  for more realistic results.

PS - You don't need PAS for extension. You are not going to flip if auto-block/backup/prussik engages off the leg loop.

Just looking at the pic it seems to me that this would really limit your ability to adjust the angle of the break strand and force you to rap with a hand really close to the device leading to an increased risk of getting pinched, but I haven't set it up to test it or feel for myself

I rappel with device on belay loop, auto block on leg loop. thousands of hours  with no problems. lots of route developement, trundels and all kinds of nonsense.  I have no problems with my system.   Obviously I have My system dialed with my cord just the right length, I have a biner duct taped to my leg loop in just the right spot for me. Been doing it this way for 15+ years.  It works.  YMMV

Faster and easier to just use an extension. What do you save tying the cord with an offset OH bend vs simply wrapping a pre-tied Prusik cord?

Certain; death! 

wivanoff wrote:

Faster and easier to just use an extension. What do you save tying the cord with an offset OH bend vs simply wrapping a pre-tied Prusik cord?

You have to tie the cord with this method, a biner adds too much length to the backup.

I always found extension to be a pain in the ass.  When you're extended it's more difficult to take in slack.  I actually prefer a shorter belay biner for this reason, you can take in slack faster and easier, perhaps with less biner flippage.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

I rappel with device on belay loop, auto block on leg loop. thousands of hours  with no problems. lots of route developement, trundels and all kinds of nonsense.  I have no problems with my system.   Obviously I have My system dialed with my cord just the right length, I have a biner duct taped to my leg loop in just the right spot for me. Been doing it this way for 15+ years.  It works.  YMMV

I sympathize and I love this method and I've used it for ten years, but it's important to not be complacent, unless you really don't fear death in which case more power to you.  

Eric. I am Not complacent. My system is safe and works very well.  If it ain't broke there is no need to fix it. 

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

Certain; death! 

Hobnails are aid

Eric, it’s hard to tell if you’re sincere or just drunk dialing the Proj with these ideas   

have you actually tried this set up IRL?  

Guarantee your premise/goal of “faster” is wrong, as Amarius pointed out - Even for a single rappel but for sure, retying that thing at every station for multi-pitch is not faster than an autoblock or most other common rigs  

Plus, I bet you two crisp $20s that you wind up essentially locked up twitching in space, unable to descend because, as was said by Matt R, that doesn’t look like it allows you the necessary range to feed the rope efficiently.    I predict you’d inch your way down and exhaust yourself with that setup. 

It looks kind of OK in theory because the backup and device are in a coaxial configuration, much like the extended rappel, but... are you really convinced that manually tying the friction hitch loop every time is going to be faster and more repeatable, and ultimately more trustworthy than extending your rappel device with a sling, and clipping your friction hitch to the belay loop?  Personally, I think that untying and retying the knot every time you rap seems slower and riskier than either of the other two established options. If you were totally out of gear, maybe this is something nice to have in your back pocket?

Eric Moss wrote:

You have to tie the cord with this method, a biner adds too much length to the backup.

I always found extension to be a pain in the ass.  When you're extended it's more difficult to take in slack.  I actually prefer a shorter belay biner for this reason, you can take in slack faster and easier, perhaps with less biner flippage.

The third hand backup cord is pre-tied or is something like a Sterling Autoblock. With your method, you have to re-tie the knot at every rap station on a multipitch rappel. That would be more of a PITA than extension, IMO.

As far as extension, the link posted upthread shows several different methods. Some are shorter, some are longer, some have a built in tether. When I do extend the rappel device I like the idea of having both hands on the brake strand. I usually do not extend or use a third hand on single pitch rappels - especially when I can look down and see the rope ends piled on the ground

While you‘re on the subject of rappelling:

what do thing about using a non-locking carabiner for your prusik? It‘s kind of redundant if you have your hands on the rope. Tried it for a bit and it felt fine.

Gene Banks wrote:

I suggest you actually get into your setup and play around with it for a while. It should become obvious what the drawbacks are.

I tried it today and it worked great, no hiccups.  What drawbacks were you expecting?

Michael Beerens wrote:

While you‘re on the subject of rappelling:

what do thing about using a non-locking carabiner for your prusik? It‘s kind of redundant if you have your hands on the rope. Tried it for a bit and it felt fine.

My thinking is that redundancies don't need lockers, since they're redundancies anyway.  

I know mp people hate tying knots, so maybe it's a good application for a soft shackle.

One of the dangers associated with the leg loop backup is what happens if the rappeller's body goes horizontal (as can happen when stretching to reach in to gear on an overhang or sideways to gear off the rappel line, or completely inverts because of a slip and maybe a pack.  In these cases, what looked like a safe distance between knot and device can turn out to be inadequate.  Such body positions are of course uncommon, which also means that it is possible to use such a system successfully for years without recognizing a potential weakness.  So I'd say get a very good belay and see what happens with your body in one of these uncommon positions.  If your set-up releases, then you have to decide how likely it is that you'll ever need the system to function in such cases.

The depicted configuration looks to me like a pain for multiple rappels---it looks as if it has to be untied and retired for each rappel.

RG.  the way I have mine set up on  my leg loop it works just fine. I have gone completely upside down  intentionally  while hands free quite a few times while trundling. Don't want your legs in the trundel zone...  that is not to say that someone else may not have a problem with their leg loop setup but I have done just about every stupid person trick imaginable  with my set up and worked the bugs out over the years . The way it is now is 100%  functional with no safety concerns that I can come up with despite doing way too much stupid stuff up on the cliff.