First in Line Ethics

Shaun Johnsonwrote:

Washington state alpine climbing is the anther place you should expect to get sandbagged by slow people on route. Happened to us all the time. I have seriously passed 3 parties on a 330 pitch route once. They just looked at me like an asshole, but we got up and down the face before they finished a single pitch..

There is nothing more lame than hiking for like 3 hours to find a line of gumbies waiting to do their first multipitch on the route you wanted to climb.

I mean, I get what your saying at a selfish level. I too have arrived at multis and been bummed knowing the days plan is, lets just call it, altered.
Now, were you ever a part of a gumby crew that did their first multi hat probably held back others? If the answer is yes, then you should obviously understand that hypocrisy of your statement.
That and clearly you needed to wake up earlier if you're sitting in a line of gumbies post 3 hours of approach.

Mr Rogerswrote:

That and clearly you needed to wake up earlier if you're sitting in a line of gumbies post 3 hours of approach.

Especially for a 330 pitch route. Could take all day.

Mr Rogerswrote:

I mean, I get what your saying at a selfish level. I too have arrived at multis and been bummed knowing the days plan is, lets just call it, altered.
Now, were you ever a part of a gumby crew that did their first multi hat probably held back others? If the answer is yes, then you should obviously understand that hypocrisy of your statement.
That and clearly you needed to wake up earlier if you're sitting in a line of gumbies post 3 hours of approach.

I can honestly say that I never held up another party. I actually never thought about that before. I know it is hard to believe, but I swear it is true. I stopped climbing at super popular spots like Leavenworth, Index, Red Rocks, Yosemite, years ago because I really dislike crowds. I dislike people being on the routes I want to do. 

I know it is crazy but when I get outside I usually like to be away from other people. It can be awesome to be at a crag and meet other people, but living in Leavenworth Wa really did something to me. It stresses me out when i pull up to the crag trailhead and there are already 4 cars with stickers representing the Seattle climbing gym they go to. I already know that they are going to be on every warm up route for the next couple hours and most likely the one strong guy is already on whatever classic climb is at that crag. Day ruined. I get it. We all want to climb, but crowds make climbing less enjoyable IMO.

BTW don't come to Idaho. It sucks here.

The two main things at play IMO are ethics/doing the right thing and physical positioning. IMO ethics would dictate the first party there with all people ready to climb are first. But physical positioning may be that the first person standing at the start blocking the climb makes it hard to pass. At that point it’s either ask the person to go pass or just push your way past them which is maybe an even bigger dick move. If you ask them and they say no what do you do? Sink to their level and argue or climb something else? I think the OP did the right thing. Contrast that with a climb that has an alternate start.  If you can do the alternate start and end up above them that’s usually fair game IMO. Of course you should be moving at last as fast as they and not holding them back or it becomes a dick move. 

Sending the fastest climber ahead to get gear stacked at the base is SOP. It only counts though if the 2nd is close enough arriving in time to not hold things up.  the most ridiculous example of this that I have seen is the time we were approaching Fafnir on Cannon cliff from moby aproach trail. not sure how we were that far right but the trail must have been packed out. We are about at the duet buttress and we see a party of three approaching from below the Dike which shares the same start as Fafnir . one of the party of 3 ditches his pack for his minions to carry and starts sprinting up the hill to the start of the Dike.  My partner who was very athletic and in his 30s started running across twords the start. I didn't change my pace at all. too old for that silly crap. Anyways the guy who had ditched his pack easily beat my partner to the start. turns out that it was George Adams. A completely jacked beast with ego issues...  My partner was chagrined that he had wasted all that energy. Had he known it was George he would have saved his energy as the race was hopeless...  anyways our climbing goals were different and only shared the 1st pitch. George is super fast and brought both 2nds up quickly but the whole thing was a ridiculous clown show. 

So it actually happens that folks will dump their pack, race ahead and stand at the base of the climb?  That is some funny, desperate shit right there!  I don't think in two decades  plus of climbing in popular trad areas, that has ever happened to me.   But a person standing at the start without gear who isn't climbing and whose 2nd is down trail, doesn't get to claim the route in my book.  Push on past, amigo.  

Hugh. Its the only time I ever saw that and it was a total clown show. Naturally the dude then had to strip down to bare skin (Ice climbing) to change out of his sweaty layers and flex for us. looked like some kind of body builder.  And yes dumping your pack for your posse to carry so you can sprint to the start of the climb is a total dick move.   Hiking fast, dropping the rope  at the base and racking up while your partner catches up seems to be somewhat accepted. 

Dicks can be funny. A partner and I were about halfway through racking up and flaking the rope at the base of a climb and one guy from another party shows up and asks “can we pass, we’re fast and you’re not ready”. I say “no, we’re pretty fast too, but if you guys are faster we may let you pass a couple pitches up.” Guy acts all put out. His partner wasn’t even there yet, lol. We proceed to pull away from them and were at pitch 5 before they were at the top of 2. The nerve and lack of self awareness is pretty funny. 

climbs sometimes wrote:

let’s talk about sliding in at the half way ledge on the rostrum next 

Or on stairway to heaven in eureka 

I think y'all convinced me to never climb at red rocks 

There's two rules I follow regarding other parties.

1) early bird gets the worm

2) never volunteer to be part of someone's junk show. Aka, I don't wait in line if I suspect the party in front is a liability.

Lived 5 miles from RR gate for 7 years.   Worst experience with another party was on Rainbow Wall.  We were at the first pitch belay working hard to get it all clean.   A party of three comes up to the base and one guy yells up "mind if we pass" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   We don't answer and my partner starts up pitch 2.  Meanwhile this ass-hat starts climbing.  If you know the route, there's not a lot of room at the belay.   When he gets to me (after seeing him french free the first pitch)  I ask if one of them is a really strong leader that can go fast?   He says that HE is the one that will be leading it all.  I asked if they are trying to get it free and he says NO, anything goes!!!.    At this point my partner is disgusted so we bail.  The jerk has the nerve to say "didn't want to spoil your vibe".    It worked out for me since I got to follow Night Crawler. 

Richard Dowerwrote:

  I asked if they are trying to get it free and he says NO, anything goes!!!.    At this point my partner is disgusted so we bail.  

every time i talk to an aid climber it makes my stomach turn

Mark E Dixonwrote:

Aren't you doing the exact same thing, except from the other end of the political spectrum?

Maybe. We're all hypocrites.

Wait. What?

Someone beats you to the route without gear or a partner? Then you yield? Pathetic.

Grow some sack. Rack up and pass on by. A person standing at the base without gear and a partner is just a person standing at the base. Not a climbing team. 

Also, I should mention that I dont often play the race game. But I do something similar to Sportiban when someone asks what I am climbing. I say the same route they are interested in to just watch them sprint up trail all concerned that someone will get the route. Evil I know,  but it's the little things that gives us pleasure, no?

Tradibanwrote:

I tend to hike faster than others, while passing the noobs on the race up they often ask “What route are you guys doing?”, I like to say “The one you guys are doing!”. This establishes dominance and sets the tone.

Lol - and I have many times added to that something like “except a lot slower” or “We’re going to do some aid climbing practice and set up a portaledge”.  

I’ve participated in numerous races over the years.  I’ve never lost one.  I’d often start whistling a symbolic and annoying jingle right behind them as they were aerobically maxed out trying to stay ahead, then I’d burn them off in the last few yards.  

One time I lit a ciggarette and started blowing smoke toward the guy as he stood there bent over panting in defeat.

Another time my wife was peeing off trail and a party passed by - I wasn’t racing, didn’t care, just a whatever day for me.  I heard a few comments about us being behind them, and that one was annoyed.  Just before the climb the guy stops, turns around and looks right at me as he pulls out a rather large dick and starts pissing off the side of the trail.  It was on a slope so I basically had to stop and watch.  Later, toward the end of the day, as they were packing up, I decided to run a cool-down lap on their project.

Lolz - decades ago - now a lot easier and more pleasant to get up early, stfu, and always have other options planned.

Ryan Jwrote:

Just before the climb the guy stops, turns around and looks right at me as he pulls out a rather large dick and starts pissing off the side of the trail.  It was on a slope so I basically had to stop and watch.

Just wanted to make sure this statement was saved in the forums for some time to come…

Tradibanwrote:

I tend to hike faster than others, while passing the noobs on the race up they often ask “What route are you guys doing?”, I like to say “The one you guys are doing!”. This establishes dominance and sets the tone. Thus I have never needed to negotiate for a route in my life.

I 100% remember you saying this to my partner and I about four years ago at Tahquitz.