First in Line Ethics

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

It was a super obvious sarcastic comment made by the OP.  I read it, got it, and moved on.  Some people just have a different sense of humor.    I would highly dissuade anyone who was offended by this little comment from ever working in a hospital, fire station or police department where humor can get really dark and sometimes over the line but it’s an attempt to keep your sanity.  

But then they wouldn't be able to engage in virtue-signaling and collect likes!

Michael Vaillwrote:

OP just perfectly described why I don't climb at Red Rocks.

That was where I got my introduction to this business.

My son and I left the parking lot at 6 to climb a super-popular multi-pitch. I figured we'd be first there.

Turned out we were the third party there. We got out our gear and started getting ready. While not racked up or tied in yet, I walked up to the start to feel the holds, something I like to do. One of the guys from the party first in line rushed over to tell me they were there first and were getting ready to climb. I felt like telling him that if they wanted to climb, they ought to put a move on instead of sitting on their asses with two other parties behind them, but I didn't want a confrontation in front of my son, so I was just like, "Relax, man, I'm just checking out the starting holds."

They took forever racking up and getting started. The leader actually climbed the first pitch pretty quickly, but the follower, the guy who had confronted me, took his sweet time getting his shoes on and getting going.

The other party was slow but nice. I have nothing negative to say about them. But I would have liked to punch that other dude in the face. Go ahead and tell me how awful I am for fantasizing about committing violence against a fellow climber.

OP, there's also another way this could have gone. If everyone was talking anyway, and it came out it was climber 2's first time climbing cracks? That's not just a casual cragging day. Climber 1 heading to a multipitch (I'm assuming multi, if you can't wait for 2 people to manage a single, you got a problem) for someone's first shot at crack, and as a follower, and trying to clean gear? Less than great for the second.

You could also have told the second, "hey, if you have any trouble cleaning stuff, just unclip it and go. We'll grab it for you."

Now, whether you'd mean that, or apply booty rules in a dubious manner and bail after rack enhancement, that's up to you 

Seriously though, for my first multipitch, we were hiking in predawn. Super Slab at Smith, a weekend, a bazillion people in the park, including the Mazamas. Who were focusing on multipitch for beginners. Lines everywhere, for sure!

It could have been a total shitshow, but as it turned out, the people following us were extraordinarily kind, and patient. The leader of that pair (the experienced one of her team) was right behind me, coaching me up that first multipitch, and my partner knew there was someone very experienced keeping an eye on my end of the rope.

Up top, he dallied to get pics for her, with her noob climber. Then, we pooled our rope and theirs for a 2 rope rappel. People behind her did the same.

The whole thing was like that, and it all was a far better outing for everyone.

And I gained a friend who's a very good climber.

Sometimes, ya just suck it up, make it work, or sigh and go elsewhere. It is just fucking climbing, after all. There's way worse things you'll have to face than this. 

I will also say this is a good example of the kind of partner to not be. Sprinting ahead and leaving your partner is not terrible, but it's also a stupid thing to do 40 minutes out from the car. And thoughtless for the other person. So is taking them on a multi for a first time shot at climbing (and cleaning?) cracks.

As to your comment, many of us get that saying something like that will bite you in the butt, sooner or later. Because it will happen. People crash and burn, strangers sure, but people you know, too. It's all part of our community, and accidents give most of us pause to ponder, because we can easily picture being there. It's also a mindset that won't help you any, kinda like, if you think too much about falling, you likely will fall. It's almost superstition, but with a base in a real thing, that mindset we need. This isn't just an empathy thing, and people of any age can have empathy. What is different for 22, is you probably haven't had other people's blood and guts in front of you yet, on your gear, or even just climbing a route right after someone cratered there . That changes things, and makes you a better partner too.

Best, Helen

Ha ha - yes, Red Rock… my first time there we got up super early to climb a popular classic. We were 1st there and I was literally climbing already - had gear placed- when a guy showed up and asked if they could go ‘first’ since they are ‘super fast’. I must have looked pretty damn slow! We linked 2-3 to give them some running room, but they ended up not being so fast. We finished rapping off while they were still on P4. One of the strangest climbing encounters I’ve ever had.

I feel like the route isn’t ‘yours’ unless both partners are there and ready to climb. But communicate and be nice!!

Robert Swrote:

But then they wouldn't be able to engage in virtue-signaling and collect likes!

Aren't you doing the exact same thing, except from the other end of the political spectrum?

Robert Swrote:

That was where I got my introduction to this business.

My son and I left the parking lot at 6 to climb a super-popular multi-pitch. I figured we'd be first there.

Turned out we were the third party there. We got out our gear and started getting ready. While not racked up or tied in yet, I walked up to the start to feel the holds, something I like to do. One of the guys from the party first in line rushed over to tell me they were there first and were getting ready to climb. I felt like telling him that if they wanted to climb, they ought to put a move on instead of sitting on their asses with two other parties behind them, but I didn't want a confrontation in front of my son, so I was just like, "Relax, man, I'm just checking out the starting holds."

They took forever racking up and getting started. The leader actually climbed the first pitch pretty quickly, but the follower, the guy who had confronted me, took his sweet time getting his shoes on and getting going.

The other party was slow but nice. I have nothing negative to say about them. But I would have liked to punch that other dude in the face. Go ahead and tell me how awful I am for fantasizing about committing violence against a fellow climber.

Crowded routes are an issue at all the classic climbing spots, but for some reason, this issue seems to have created a super toxic vibe at RR. The only hypothesis I have is that RR is particularly attractive to a subset of climbers that can be described by the classic Dunning-Kruger model:

It’s a dick move to wish real harm to another dick- Jess saying.

But what is wrong with you people. If someone slides in front cause they were sent ahead- fast n light and the gear hasn’t arrived- just start climbing. But if it’s a sort of tie and other party claims they are fast let them show it. Sit back and watch em. Sometimes it’s quite entertaining to watch them get spanked. Or if they are fast, as claimed, climb below and keep up. These are the people you should meet and hang with. We all think we’re fast. 

Guy Keeseewrote:

 We all think we’re fast. 

Isn’t that the truth! There’s always someone faster than you! 

I'd say running ahead and saving a place is poor taste. Then no one's climbing. They're just guarding the climb and preventing your party from climbing it.

Here are two relevant stories, both from RR.

(1) A friend and I were a pitch up when another party arrived.  We were moving at a moderate pace.  The folks behind were blasting.  I don't enjoy having people breathing down my neck, so when they arrived at a belay stance a little higher, I asked them if they would like to pass and go on ahead.  The response was, "No, no, mate, no worries--- it's all about the day!"  And so we continued on in the original order, chatting amiably at belay ledges and exchanging photos at the top.

(2) Another friend and partner who together are a very fast team arrived at the base a bit after another party.  My friend said, "Hey, could we go first? We're fast and won't be in your way.  Give us a one-pitch head start, and if you catch up to us we promise to rap off and leave the climb to you."  The other party agreed.  They were half-way up and headed for a headlamp finish and descent when my friend and his partner topped out.

This is why I mainly climb in not popular areas on unpopular routes fuck all the lines and stupidity for a climb just because someone else called it a classic.

Interesting consensus on RR. After climbing all over the US RR is curiously the only place I’ve had what I would call a bad day of climbing due to others. Between the rude people, dog shit bags everywhere, and reservation system I signal defeat and will only return for roulette 

Washington state alpine climbing is the anther place you should expect to get sandbagged by slow people on route. Happened to us all the time. I have seriously passed 3 parties on a 330 pitch route once. They just looked at me like an asshole, but we got up and down the face before they finished a single pitch..

There is nothing more lame than hiking for like 3 hours to find a line of gumbies waiting to do their first multipitch on the route you wanted to climb.

Chad Millerwrote:

I remember when people got upset about something they spoke to the person who upset them. Face to face. 

Yeah, well Covid happened and we don’t do “face to face” things anymore. Must be a slow day at the gym if you’re making nostalgic posts about 2019! /s 

PS 

hoping I did the sarcasm thing correctly (wink wink)

Curmudgeon Donwrote:

Yeah, well Covid happened and we don’t do “face to face” things anymore. Must be a slow day at the gym if you’re making nostalgic posts about 2019! /s 

PS 

hoping I did the sarcasm thing correctly (wink wink)

Very slow day. All the gyms are closed today, it’s raining in the valley and storming in the mountains .  :(

Kevin Mokracekwrote: I would highly dissuade anyone who was offended by this little comment from ever working in a hospital, fire station or police department where humor can get really dark and sometimes over the line but it’s an attempt to keep your sanity.  

I am a doctor and work at hospitals. No one I know jokes about a wishing a patient dead even if they are difficult. Because that is really fucked up. And yeah. Jokingly wishing some climber injured or dead while climbing is fucked up. If you need to wish someone dead to keep your sanity, maybe medicine isn’t the field for you. 

clee 03mwrote:

I am a doctor and work at hospitals. No one I know jokes about a wishing a patient dead even if they are difficult. Because that is really fucked up. And yeah. Jokingly wishing some climber injured or dead while climbing is fucked up. If you need to wish someone dead to keep your sanity, maybe medicine isn’t the field for you. 

Are you a radiologist?

I can tell you that jokes get pretty dark in the ER.

Marco Conciwrote:

Hey all, I hope to get a question answered and hopefully a classic MP forum argument started.

Q: If climber #1 gets to the base of the wall first, then a party arrives before the partner, climber #2, arrives at the wall should the party or other climbers be able to climb first?

Recently had this happen to me, being part of the party. Essentially talked to the other climbers in the parking lot about goals of the day and such and it turns out we were going for the same climb with ~40 min approach. We parked and started hiking before, at a good pace and no breaks, while they were putting gear in their bags. We got to the base of the climb about a minute after partner #1 who immediately laid out his gear at the base. When jokingly asked if he ran to the base he said he jogged, we said he snaked the climb he didn’t respond. Climber #2 arrived a few minutes later. 

When Climber #1 lead the first pitch we were told climber #2 had never crack climbed before and was strictly following. At this point we left for a different climb.

Anyways I wouldn’t mind seeing Climber #1 again, in the AAC accident reports /s

Do more cardio and wake up earlier. This strategy has worked very well for me 

The only time I climbed The Nose, the party behind us worked super hard to beat everyone up the fixed lines to Sickle at like 3am, but my partner and I had seen it coming (go pros on the helmets and too-shiny gear) the day before on the first few pitches, so we spent an uncomfortable night on Sickle and started ahead of them. They got stuck on the first lower out into the stovelegs below us…it literally took them all day…and they blocked about 5 parties who were behind them, all but one of whom bailed. It was quite the sight from above. We had the entire route to ourselves for the rest of the time we were up there. It was magical. So, thank you gumbies, wherever you are!!!

Were you the gumbies, or were they? Who knows! But it sounds like you should have woken up earlier!

clee 03mwrote:

I am a doctor and work at hospitals. No one I know jokes about a wishing a patient dead even if they are difficult. Because that is really fucked up. And yeah. Jokingly wishing some climber injured or dead while climbing is fucked up. If you need to wish someone dead to keep your sanity, maybe medicine isn’t the field for you. 

I never said joking about wishing someone dead.    I said that humor in those institutions can get dark.    An interesting trend I noticed before retirement from 30 years working as a firefighter paramedic in Los Angeles was an immense uptick in active duty suicides among firemen.  In my last year on the job I lost 2 good co workers to suicide.   The uptick in suicide also coincided with a crackdown on firehouse “horseplay” and just general blowing off steam.   The department took away an unofficial way of dealing with stress and failed to replace it with any other adequate way to deal with it.  

I’m sure as a doctor you see death and horrible situations everyday.   Do you alway deal with it in the best way?   I’m not excusing what the OP said but I also know that he didn’t mean it and heck, we all have bad days and EVERYONE deserves a little grace.