You can now flag a discriminatory name

Kalil Oldhamwrote: Even in the world of outdoor recreation, the threat to Black lives is real. 

How are black lives threatened by the world of outdoor recreation? A black guy gets beat up by a POS white supremacist and that speaks for the entire world of outdoor recreation? Come on dude, climbers are some of the most welcoming people. There are a lot of edgy route names, and I am sure some have gone too far, but to go so far to say that black lives are threatened is absurd. How in the world would a black person be in danger going to the crag? I am genuinely curious. I am sure there are some racist climbers out there somewhere, but honestly, can anybody tell me about an experience they have had with a racist climber? Even if you can, does that represent our community? Fuck no. 

Those that aren’t brave enough to admit the country doesn’t always live up to its ideals of equality grab onto any statements they see as over reaching and use it to stay comfortable in their myopic idealized view of the country and pretend there is nothing wrong. I would say the great majority of climbers are welcoming and non racist/sexist. But all it takes is one bad experience from one asshole to make a minority or woman feel unwelcome or on guard. Rural places where climbing takes place unfortunately have a higher percentage of bigoted people. Having a racist or sexist route name is just salt in the wound and it’s such as minor thing to change. For many people the worst thing about changing a route name may be a little confusion. Versus a racist or sexist route name making a person feel unwelcome, unsafe, or shit on. Not a hard choice for me. Sure there’s some route names that aren’t clearly offensive and we can debate what the criteria should be to make that call, but to try to shut down the debate before it even happens is pretty weak.

This whole trying to do away with history and being so damn "woke" is what's weak bud. And calling people that don't agree with the "woke" bigots and racists is the least "woke" thing I can imagine. But y'all go ahead and get your shouting in

I'm absolutely stoked that MP is taking this step to make climbing a more inclusive sport for people who aren't straight cis white men, and I don't envy the admins who are going to have a lot of hard decisions to make as they go through this transition. 3 things I want to suggest:

- Routes should still be searchable via the old name (perhaps routes can have an "fka" or "alternate name" section). MP working to rename routes so the prominently displayed name doesn't exclude marginalized groups is an incredible step, but hopefully no one literally dies on any hills because they couldn't find the gear beta or routefinding info for a climb they get on. The safety of the users should be the first priority, and making routes inaccessible via names the local guidebooks will continue to list them for some time (or in some cases, in perpetuity) is also a significant concern.
- FA and guidebook authors/publishers should be consulted. Publishers who are amenable may wish to publish the name updates in their online errata / supplement releases (at least Quickdraw publishes updates on their website for all of their books, I assume others may do this as well)
- Discretion is important for choosing to keep/change names. One of the most apt route names on the Chief is called "Black Dyke" which is literally that: a striking dyke of basalt running through the otherwise granitic monolith, clearly visible even at a distance. I noticed this one's already been flagged, and I wonder whether this is sensible, especially considering the word dyke has been reappropriated by the lesbian community ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyke_(slang) ) Consulting members of affected communities may be a crucial step for determining appropriateness. On the other hand routes like "Bull Dyke" ( mountainproject.com/route/1… - currently not flagged) are likely not even named well, unless the name is given to a route following a dyke which contains 2 prominent horn features.

Peter Twrote:

How many discriminatory street names have you seen...?

I'm shocked the mob hasn't come after this guy at ALL. Probably because knowing anything about him requires more than 3 brain cells.

Matthew Jaggers wrote:

If you want to celebrate the murder of innocent civilians abroad, the unconstitutional spying on our own citizens, the corporate welfare taken out of each and everyone of your paychecks, the brutalization of native peoples protecting their land and waterways, the militarization of our police forces, continued and newly created wars for corporate interests, the selection of a Joe Biden for VP who helped put more black and brown people in prison than any Republican could in their wettest of dreams, and I could go on. Obama was one of the worst Presidents the US has ever seen (and sadly I voted for him. Greatest con man of all time). No, he didnt own slaves, he just sold us to the lowest bidder. How about we dont name anything after that corporate warmongering tool. 

Very, very sadly, and it pains me to even write this truth, but Osama brought more people together in the this country than Obama. And no, no street names after that terrorist, either.

Educate yourself on for profit prisons and who supports these the most, then come and tell us how evil Biden is. Biden had support from both sides and the general public back then. 

You could also educate yourself on the crack epidemic from the eighties before spouting the FOX mantra.

Boy, things are really hard for some of my fellow whites, they might have to use a few different words and some statuary they likely never visited is gone. Imagine if they went through something actually hard, we’d all have to buy wading boots.

It's so strange to me that some white climbers believe that racism exists everywhere else in the country EXCEPT in the climbing community.

As if we have some kind of unicorn dust climbing chalk that magically makes us all immune from a problem found in every other nook and cranny of society.

Makes perfect sense to me...      

Colonel Mustardwrote: Boy, things are really hard for some of my fellow whites, they might have to use a few different words and some statuary they likely never visited is gone. Imagine if they went through something actually hard, we’d all have to buy wading boots.

Ok please use my proper pronouns.  Although I was born a “fellow white.”   I now identify as Homo sapiens sapiens. 

Dave K wrote:

Racism is much more prevalent in contexts where there are economic incentives to have a class system. Of course slavery the most extreme example. People don't enslave others just to be assholes, they do it because they are greedy.

Noncompetitive outdoor pursuits do not have these incentives, so it does make perfect sense that racism is uncommon in these contexts.

Funny... I seem to remember Shelma Jun making a survey where many women shared their experiences with sexism in climbing and lots of men telling her the problem doesn't actually exist, and then I seem to remember BIPOC climbers talking about all of their personal, lived experiences with racism in the climbing community and lots of white people online telling them the problem doesn't actually exist.

I still think that as a generally rule, white, cisgendered men people like myself should probably do a less talking and more listening right now. The fact that a racist, sexist, or trans/queer/homophobic route name doesn't make US feel othered or uncomfortable isn't the f-ing point.

Once again, names can be changed, the rock stays the same. I wonder how many curmudgeonry old mountaineers still refuse to call a certain mountain Denali.  

gtlukewrote:

I'm shocked the mob hasn't come after this guy at ALL. Probably because knowing anything about him requires more than 3 brain cells.

Luke, is the implication here that anyone who cares about changing discriminatory route names is an idiot? It's OK for you to disagree but that's rude. I consider us friends - we've climbed together - but we should be able to have these conversations without insulting one another. 

Anyway, this thread is really about discriminatory route names. Things like "wetback expressway," "the black bitch," "the coon," "rape conducive," "towelhead," etc. There aren't any street names like that, nor should there be route names. It's beyond me why anyone would argue against changing names like that. Sure there are some that will get flagged that shouldn't be, but can we all at least agree that names like these should change?  

Things like "wetback expressway," "the black bitch," "the coon," "rape conducive," "towelhead," etc. There aren't any street names like that, nor should there be route names.    < > can we all at least agree that names like these should change?  

You could likely get a consensus on those names, sure. They need to change.

But who gets to rename them? The site owner of a private website? Who is he, god? The managers appointed by that private website owner? Are they saints? Get over yourselves! Nomination and voting by the subscribers to the private web site, most of whom have no connection to any given route at any given location? No.

None of these are any good. Renaming the routes of others is bullshit pure and simple.I don't care if you're a site owner or a guide book publisher.

Now if you don't like the route content then delete the route from your private website database. Don't publish it in your book. But don't presume you have a right to rename anything - you don't.

Dave K wrote:

It's interesting that you use the term BIPOC, a term specifically designed to impose a class system like the one I referenced in my previous post. People are people.

Aspiring to be "colorblind" is not helpful. People ARE people, but different people have RADICALLY different lived experiences based on nothing other than their physical appearance. 

Refusing to acknowledge that reality is actually very harmful.

Dave K wrote: Still, I'm curious why you use the term BIPOC.

I'll leave this or this or this or even this here.

I use to say "African-American" or "POC" all the time. Then I started listening to people actually in and of the community and adjusted accordingly.

Do with it what you will. Cheers, Dave.

This whole trying to do away with history and being so damn "woke" is what's weak bud. And calling people that don't agree with the "woke" bigots and racists is the least "woke" thing I can imagine. But y'all go ahead and get your shouting in

fighting discrimination is not doing away with history. Cliche deflection there. Just a worn out right wing taking point.

making it about “woke” people and not discrimination is exactly what I’m talking about. People that discriminate are bigots.

I'm not shouting I’m trying to explain it so maybe some people will understand a different view point, but I know some people will never get it and convince themselves of whatever they need to believe.

Does anybody know somebody who is actually white?. I know a guy nicknamed Whitey, but he isn't even white. I just held my hand over a piece of white paper. I have a slight tan from being in the sun, but my skin tone is way closer to the darkest skin I have seen than white.

Dave K wrote:

For-profit newspapers, academics seeking notoriety, and woke people vying for social status are not the voice of "the community." 

Remember what I said earlier about incentives?

Ugh. Sorry, Dave. This conversation is no longer productive, nor do I think it's sincere. 

I obviously don't record conversations that I have with actual people IRL to post later on MP forums to support my points, so I used articles for ease and convenience. 

You do you, dude. 

Peter Twrote:

Luke, is the implication here that anyone who cares about changing discriminatory route names is an idiot? It's OK for you to disagree but that's rude. I consider us friends - we've climbed together - but we should be able to have these conversations without insulting one another. 

Anyway, this thread is really about discriminatory route names. Things like "wetback expressway," "the black bitch," "the coon," "rape conducive," "towelhead," etc. There aren't any street names like that, nor should there be route names. It's beyond me why anyone would argue against changing names like that. Sure there are some that will get flagged that shouldn't be, but can we all at least agree that names like these should change?  

Someone asked about street names and I knew of that one, that's it. That's a street named after an actual Nazi. Not a Nazi as in "people who disagree with me politically" but like a guy who wore a Nazi uniform.

Staten Island, NY

I don't care what anyone calls anything personally. But people need a better hobby other than recreational outrage. Like arguing on the internet ;)
If it's okay to throw the term Nazi around all loosey goosey than I'm going to continue calling my favorite climb Shockley's Ceiling no matter what they change it to. Mister Transistor may have been a flawed man but it's the perfect name for this route.
Someone told me to my face while sharing a rappel that Brozone was an offensive route name. I don't think he knew about erogenous zone.
i just picture someone turning the guidebook page by page thinking really hard about ways to be offended, and it seems gross. :shrug:

Maybe I'm just old and out of touch, maybe I read too much sci-fi but I think nobody will be happy till we live in the Pathmark No-Frills isle

"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right."

Carolinawrote:

Ok please use my proper pronouns.  Although I was born a “fellow white.”   I now identify as Homo sapiens sapiens. 

Race isn’t a pronoun.

Last I saw it was 3800 routes and counting.
I laughed when I saw "*69" was flagged.  
'Last Caller ID' has become offensive.