New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #10

Dallas, we'd offer you a spot in our driveway, but your rig wouldn't fit. FWIW, if there's ever an emergency, and you need a place to stay, you have an open invitation to make your way over to our place, and we'll figure something out.

Alicia, yes, where was that photo taken? It looks like a quarry.

Lori, where's the post by rgold about not climbing outdoors? I haven't actually read much about this. Hm. Should we not go climbing outdoors? TBH I'm planning on going as soon as it's physically possible    although my mind can be changed. The areas where we usually go climbing outdoors are generally 100% deserted. We don't want to get physically hurt while climbing, and wind up in the hospital. Of course we never want that. Is that the rationale behind staying away from outdoor climbing at the current time - avoid the risk of cluttering up the hospital system further?

Currently, the weather will prevent us from climbing, anyway - it's still too wet and cold. So I guess it's kind of moot.

Erika, I went to the gym on March 13th, and they closed on the 16th. As it stands, I don't think I made a bad decision; I feel lucky to have gotten some climbing in before things all went to hell. But then I show no signs of infection. Bill and I have been keeping to ourselves, but we do go out periodically to buy groceries. If one of us got infected, we'll probably both get it. At this point, I almost wish I would get it, just to frickin get over it already. This whole bizarre episode makes me wonder what the future holds. Are we going to have a new lethal virus traversing the globe each year?

We've also gone out for hikes and walks. My understanding is that it is okay to continue outdoor activities, as long as it's not among crowds.

Lori and Dwain, Silent Scream looks wonderful, my kinda climb! I've added it to my "to-do" list.

Helen, it's not known why coronavirus affects and kills older adults more than children. Here's a WaPo article on the topic. The TL;DR is: they don't know. They make random guesses, but they just don't know. In a proverbial mouse study:

Menachery found the older mice’s fatalities were strongly related to not just weakness in their immune systems but also a “disregulation” that caused their immune systems to overreact to the SARS coronavirus. That’s similar to how humans die of infections from the new coronavirus, called SARS-CoV-2.
“It’s the aggressive response from their immune system that is damaging them, even more than the infection itself,” Menachery said. “It’s like police responding to a misdemeanor with a SWAT team crashing through the door.”

But then there's this:

Some experts have floated a theory that because children are so heavily exposed to four other mild coronaviruses, which circulate every year and cause the common cold, that may give kids some kind of strengthened immunity. But many have doubts about that argument because adults catch the common cold coronaviruses too, and the immune systems of children — especially under the age of five — are underdeveloped, which should make them more vulnerable, not less
...
“If it bears out that kids are less prone to infection, then I suspect there’s something more mechanical than immunological going on,” said Esper, the pediatric infection expert. “Something about the receptors in children’s bodies or their lungs is interfering with the virus’ ability to attach itself.”
“It just shows you how much we don’t know about this virus,”

Hang in there Lori!

I spent yesterday emailing and video chatting with my students who are experiencing all kinds of fear, anger, disappointment and disbelief. I teach in a 3 year doctoral program for PT. My 1st years are worried about the interruption in their studies and transitioning to on-line. My 2nd years are supposed to go out to internships May 4 (not happening). My 3rd years are in final rotations, most have been canceled, scattered around the country, and have just learned graduation is canceled. They feel like the rug has been pulled out from underneath them.

I made a list of coping strategies I’m using and shared with my academic and research advisees, and asked what strategies they are using. I think it helped for them to realize they aren’t alone in this and that their professors are struggling too - the whole world is.

So I guess I’ll ask it here also- what coping strategies are all of you using?

I’m trying to just get through each day as it comes. If I look at the whole picture and let myself think about how long this might last, my anxiety goes through the roof. So, it’s an attempt to enjoy each day as it is.

Thanks for the photo David - we can’t quite see the flatirons from our house (NTM is our view) - they are always so beautiful in the snow.

Erika

Here's the thing. For context, we have another article where they attempt to explain why COVID-19 is so dangerous:

So, the virus isn’t more powerful, per se, than other viruses. But when it enters the human body, we have no pre-existing defenses since our bodies don’t immediately recognize it as a dangerous intruder. Imagine an old, walled medieval town. If this virus were a disguised attacker arriving at the town’s protective walls, but open gates, the guards would not immediately know to be suspicious. With this coronavirus, it’s as if the guardians of our cells have kept the gates open and let the coronavirus in without immediately recognizing its danger.

So this person makes it sound like our immune systems are unprepared and then get overwhelmed by the virus. But that explanation would make it seem like young children would much more easily become infected and die from it, when the opposite it true.
And the other explanation makes it sound like our immune systems over-respond.
I believe the answer is that they just don't know yet.

Dragons - re:climbing outside.... I think it’s a couple things. If it’s crowded you can’t really social distance (I saw a comment on a FB thread about a guy clearing his nostrils and hitting people 1 pitch below in Eldo...). The other is the risk of taking medical resources. We went out Weds to a remote area (social distancing - check!), but my mind was so heavily preoccupied with what might happen if we had even a minor mishap that it was more stress than it was worth.

The place we were climbing was the site of a large and complex rescue for a broken leg a few months ago after a climber hit a ledge when a hold broke on him (maybe gear failed too, I can’t remember). The trail was heavily flagged for the carry out team, so that was a big reminder. 

Even hiking shit can happen, but why increase the risk? Nobody intends to have an accident. I think it’s been put pretty well by those who have said to go ahead and get out if you’re away from people, but treat it like a remote alpine expedition and be prepared to manage anything that goes wrong without outside resources. But of course even with that you might end up needing medical care which our hospitals might not be able to handle. 
My 2 cents.

The small bouldering wall I built in the garage a few years ago looks like my only "climbing" for a while.  While looking in my bookcase for something I hadn't already read I found "Philosphy, The Quest for Truth", edited by Louis Pojman of the US Military Academy at West Point (now isn't that really strange), published 1996.  Purchased at the Okanagan University College bookstore in Kelowna, BC.  Inside the cover, "Karen Davis, North Campus".  I have no idea how this got into my house.

It's slow reading.  Starts with essays from Plato on Socratic Wisdom.  An interesting quote is "...the wisest knows that his wisdom is in truth worth nothing".  A quote for these times!

I'm now trying to read and understand Thomas Aquinas' essays on the five ways the existence of God can be proved.  Not sure I'll succeed but it will fill some idle time!

Probably shouldn’t go climbing in the Flatirons or Eldo today!

Idaho Bob wrote: The small bouldering wall I built in the garage a few years ago looks like my only "climbing" for a while.

Good reminder. Mine is empty of holds; I took them all down because they were spinning. I should just suck it up and put the holds back up. It's such a pain.

Does anyone have advice to keep holds from spinning? I've been applying sandpaper with a sticky backing to all of the holds before drilling them in. It's a real chore and slows me down. Also, I'm not sure it will work for long. For context, the board is a type of plywood that is way too smooth. I put up a bunch of holds last year, and this spring almost all of them were spinning, which is why I decided to take them all down. I've checked out the "woody" threads, but I haven't seen any mention of this problem.

I'm now trying to read and understand Thomas Aquinas' essays on the five ways the existence of God can be proved.  Not sure I'll succeed but it will fill some idle time!

I read them and they were wasted on me, but YMMV. Maybe want to read the Cliff's Notes version first: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways_(Aquinas)

Erika, right now, the hospital system is not overwhelmed in my neck of the woods. Although, we did recently get a hospital doc who tested positive for the virus. So I guess I wouldn't want to be admitted there! However, I'm still feeling skeptical about this argument. Not sure I'm going to stay away from my usual haunts when the weather improves. We'll watch and wait. OTOH, things are not looking real good for our planned road trip. I don't see that happening, now, but maybe later in the year.

dragons wrote: Good reminder. Mine is empty of holds; I took them all down because they were spinning. I should just suck it up and put the holds back up. It's such a pain.

Does anyone have advice to keep holds from spinning? I've been applying sandpaper with a sticky backing to all of the holds before drilling them in. It's a real chore and slows me down. Also, I'm not sure it will work for long. For context, the board is a type of plywood that is way too smooth. I put up a bunch of holds last year, and this spring almost all of them were spinning, which is why I decided to take them all down. I've checked out the "woody" threads, but I haven't seen any mention of this problem.

I don't know what I said about climbing outside elsewhere, and in any case out perspectives seem to change daily as the true nature of the threat ramps up.  Several things seem clear to me.  

1. Road-tripping should be out, most especially to small locales with virtually no capacity to handle and epidemic locally.  This includes day trips from urban areas with high infection rates to rural places with far less health care available.  So, for example, going from NYC to the Gunks seems really wrong to me.

2. If you live with a climber and can go locally to a place where you can maintain social distance and won't interact with anyone else between home and trailhead, well maybe.  But meeting others you aren't already in close contact with should be out, which would eliminate most climbing for most people (including me).  On top of that is the concern about the consequences of an accident, both in terms of exposing responders forced to congregate, and diverting medical resources.  This rules out climbing for me, and also trail-running, as I've usually had one bad wipeout a year (no injuries beyond a gash in the skull that bled a lot but no stitches).

3. Solo hiking locally is ok, but around here some parks are getting pretty heavy traffic as people realize a walk in nature is the only game in town.  The West Trapps Lot at the Gunks was full and turning away cars last Wednesday, which is unheard-of for a weekday.  The lots at Minnewaska state park are filling to capacity as well.  With that many people out, social distancing may become challenging, especially at the staging areas.  I'd be prepared to turn around and head somewhere else.

I've found small and not nearly so popular parks and preserves that have been, so far, virtually deserted, with at most the odd walker encountered once or twice in an hour or two out.  It hasn't been that hard, so far, for me to get out in a way that seems safe for me and doesn't mitigate the essential epidemiological actions we have to take as a population to try to tamp down virus transmission.

I think we will be substantially restricted for a long time, perhaps two years.  I don't think things can return to a semblance of normal, or some new normal established, until there is a vaccine widely available.  Social distancing reduces the infection rate and has the potential to keep things closer to the capacity of the healthcare system to handle, but it doesn't change the fact that a large fraction of the population is susceptible, and the infection rate will come roaring back if, say after a month, the number of cases plummets and people emerge from their caves and resume conventional public interactions.  The epidemic itself won't peter out until the general population is 70% or so immune, either through deaths and recoveries or, much better, through that plus vaccinations.

I painted my wall with sand finish paint to make it rough,  installed T-inserts through the back side, then just bolted the holds.  No spinners.

dragons wrote:

Erika, right now, the hospital system is not overwhelmed in my neck of the woods. Although, we did recently get a hospital doc who tested positive for the virus. So I guess I wouldn't want to be admitted there! However, I'm still feeling skeptical about this argument. Not sure I'm going to stay away from my usual haunts when the weather improves. We'll watch and wait. OTOH, things are not looking real good for our planned road trip. I don't see that happening, now, but maybe later in the year.

What is happening right now is not necessarily how things are going to look in a few weeks. Being proactive is necessary - limiting BEFORE it becomes a requirement.  I don’t know what to tell you, but my friends who are on the front lines in the hospitals are telling me terrible stories. There is a nationwide shortage of medical equipment and PPE - even if your specific hospital does not have any cases or is not overwhelmed with patients (yet).

One of my friends told me yesterday her hospital is no longer able to use precautions for MRSA (gown, mask) because those pieces of PPE have to be conserved for Corona cases. How many providers and patients will now become infected with MRSA? This is not a small thing. She is also not able to use an N95 mask unless she is intubating patients and is only using a surgical mask - which she is having to use for multiple days (typically a single use item). Her hospital has told them they only have enough PPE left for 9 days.

Please just consider those things when you are feeling skeptical. 

dragons wrote:Does anyone have advice to keep holds from spinning? I've been applying sandpaper with a sticky backing to all of the holds before drilling them in. It's a real chore and slows me down. Also, I'm not sure it will work for long. For context, the board is a type of plywood that is way too smooth. I put up a bunch of holds last year, and this spring almost all of them were spinning, which is why I decided to take them all down. I've checked out the "woody" threads, but I haven't seen any mention of this problem.

I have used Flex Seal Liquid Rubber on the backs of some of my holds. Cured the problem.

I just want to post this here also in case you are not reading other threads (a post from someone actually working on the front lines in a small community hospital):

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/118673449/one-more-thing-to-consider

ErikaNW wrote: I just want to post this here also in case you are not reading other threads (a post from someone actually working on the front lines in a small community hospital):

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/118673449/one-more-thing-to-consider

I sure get what he is saying.
And that's why I am staying in my home with short walks around
the outside my home, and only leaving if necessary to get a few groceries
or an emergency.  I don't want to be a burden on the Medical system if I get hurt
going out hiking or biking, even driving

Russ Walling wrote: In my county the shelter in place order included no riding of bicycles.

Are you talking about San Bernardino county?  Can you provide a link?

I live in San Bernardino County.  From everything I've read, they are encouraging folks to get outside and exercise - walking, running, horses, biking.  When out for my walk yesterday I was passed by 2 SB County police cars and 2 SB County citizens patrol cars (it was a long walk).  They all waved hello.

Here is a message from one of my friends to anyone who thinks this won't be impacting them and their communities:

'Unless people want a gynaecologist or pathologist intubating their parent and managing them on the ward when they need an ICU in a couple weeks from now they should stay home and take this seriously. The fact that their community and their hospital is not over-run yet does not mean that it won’t be in a couple weeks. The pattern of spread and progression to national emergency, lack of PPE and lack of ICU beds, vents and acute care trained nurses and docs has repeated itself in enough different countries now that it is irresponsible not to take the threat seriously.

Sincerely,

A rural emerg doc/GP-anesthetist'

On another note, unrelated to viruses and related to climbing - I've been seeing this ad for a few weeks now and every time I see it, it annoys me.

Why is the rope insanely tight while she's trying to traverse right?  Why is the quickdraw placed in an incorrect and dangerous orientation for the direction on travel?  And why is the focal point of the photo and the dead center of the logo, her right breast?

I do a bunch of quilting when I'm too tired to do anything athletic or otherwise physical.  Jo-Ann Fabric stores sent out a tutorial this morning for how to sew non-surgical face masks for donation to area hospital personnel.  Apparently they are grateful for this help.  With a minor in microbiology and many years of experience in sterile technique, I feel confident I can create a bunch of pretty darn good, pretty darn clean masks.  Will be doing that for the next week.

My question is; What are the chances of getting hurt while riding a bicycle, hiking, or driving, and having to involve essential personnel
compared to staying at home and walking around the yard  or block?

The rope does look pretty tight—maybe to hold her in place while they shot the photo? Yes, I agree, the last quick draw before the traverse is definitely backwards. I would have clipped it the other way. As to the breast thing, I would not have noticed had you not pointed it out. Good catch on the quick draw.

The local trails have become a haven (or magnet) for everyone.  No gym climbing has put us into a funk, but I am trying to get a few nice Mt. and Road Bike rides in most days.

Went for a ride yesterday, but stupidly forgot my bike shoes. Muddy conditions and spds were challenging in my trail running shoes.  

Post ride shot.