No new bolts on Whitehorse, right?

Hi all, my understanding is that routes on Whitehorse should not be retrobolted. Isn't that the consensus? I recently got a comment on one of my route pictures:

https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/112329069

The comment reads:

If you're new to trad leading, this pitch will scare the crap out of you. Particularly if you're new to slabs. We were up here last week and it was damp and the runout on this pitch was one of the scarier on this side of the ledge for sure.

Having one or two bolts on this would certainly calm the nerves of newer leaders.

What's the etiquette for adding bolts? Big no-no on already established routes?

In my view, one of the reasons this pitch is so much fun is because it is totally run out. I would hate to see any of these long runouts at Whitehorse retrobolted. Even on the supposedly super-easy "Beginner's Easy Variation" - which, in the view of many, is not really all that easy :)

Isn't the etiquette pretty standard when it comes to this? I wouldn't worry. Any new bolts wouldn't last long. 

Thank you Rob. I thought the etiquette was clear, but when I checked the page for Whitehorse I didn't see any mention of it one way or the other.

There's an "Ethics" section for NH:

The climbing areas in New Hampshire display diverse ethics, though some common threads can be found. No chipping, drilling of holds, or modifying of existed routes. Beyond that, consider the local area's specific ethics. What's acceptable at Rumney might not be acceptable at Cathedral, for example. If you have any questions, ask a local, get a consensus (no small feat, to be sure), and think before you act.

But I don't see anything specific for Whitehorse.

slab climbing is boring as shit without runouts... 

Nick Goldsmith wrote: slab climbing is boring as shit without runouts... 

Yup. Plus I need to justify my 7 pink tri-cams-

I have mixed feelings about this.

I’ve been climbing for over 20 years and I’m all for leaving trad routes that can be protected, unbolted.

Now,  take a 5.7 slab runout that there’s no reasonable gear placements and why would we not add a bolt or two for safety?

If you want to run it out for the thrill, don’t clip the bolts!

Should we remove all of the bolted anchors and force people to use pitons and sketchy gear to belay each pitch?

I’m all for respectfully adding bolts on routes where there is big fall potential and no possible gear placements.

"If you want to run it out for the thrill, don’t clip the bolts!"

Let's bolt everything then.

Henry Barber will show up and rip any new bolts out with his bare hands. Don't put bolts on existing climbs! Climb them as they are embracing the psychological factor that makes these climbs what they are, or don't. If you put bolts there, it then forces a person to make the choice to clip them or not; a choice that wasn't there before and therefor changes the aspect and seriousness of the climb. If you want a higher safety margin, that's your choice, so go to Rumney instead. 

Michael Reif wrote: I have mixed feelings about this.

You shouldn't - the ethic is very clear, and not just for Whitehorse.

I’ve been climbing for over 20 years and I’m all for leaving trad routes that can be protected, unbolted.

Now,  take a 5.7 slab runout that there’s no reasonable gear placements and why would we not add a bolt or two for safety?

Because that's not what's done. If you don't like the runout, find another route. As others have said, that's what they find appealing about slab friction routes.

If you want to run it out for the thrill, don’t clip the bolts!

Thoroughly debunked many years ago - the mere presence of the bolts changes the very nature of the route.

Should we remove all of the bolted anchors and force people to use pitons and sketchy gear to belay each pitch?

You're  missing the point.

I’m all for respectfully adding bolts on routes where there is big fall potential and no possible gear placements.

No.

Groundhog's day

I’m no purist, but I’d go pull those out myself if they appeared. Whitehorse’s slabs may be the oldest technical climbing in the USA. If you want well-bolted 5.3 slab, go do Clip-a-dee do-dah. You can even take your dog.

Michael Reif, have you really been climbing consistently for 20 years? This is an established norm. 

it never ends. leave the shit alone, if it dosent have bolts, its because the person or persons who put it up didnt put them in, so its not for anyone else to put any in, unless the person who put it up decided to do so. why does this keep happening. a couple crags in the first pullout at red rock  have been getting bolts slammed in on climbs that were trad. not just one climb, a bunch of them. i think i know whos doing it because he posts on all the climbs that "Bolts and anchors added in the spring of 2019. Now a safe and enjoyable slab climb" or "This has been retro bolted and has an anchor. 5.11a/b. Good warm up for the harder routes on the cliff.".......of course he may just be happy about it and posting it, and someone else doing the dirty work.

same thing at ralph stover, guys from doylestown gym started a while back bolting already established trad routes there, and down at a less known cliff close by. i know a couple of the people who put up these climbs werent too happy about it (stryker) and have said so on here.

im not against sport routes, hell, i like em, theyre fun.....but leave shit alone thats been established already.

After more than forty years of climbing, I've watched this long debate stagnate into absurdity. Left behind is a realistic view of our sport within the context of the changing outside world. We ignore the fact that we are supposed to live in a democracy, broken as it is.
Ten million climbers in the USA, is the number I've heard thrown around. What percentage of them climb harder than 5.12? What percentage of them put up new routes?
What percentage of climbers, passing beneath a beautiful but dangerously run-out route, think, 'Wow, what a gorgeous route. I'd love to give it a try, but it's too dangerous.'? What percentage of us think, 'Yes! Dangerously run out!' Now mind you, those of us that have done any free solo -which is an activity available to all climbers -know that the 'thrill' derived from climbing a run out route is found, on steroids, when you climb ropeless.
We've been trapped by a tiny minority (sound familiar, Americans?) that takes advantage of the boldness association with the early days of our sport. We are shamed in our millions, by a handful of climbers who don't really care what the majority may want, in an ever-changing sport dynamic.
But is the ethic even based in legality? According to this ethic, the first ascentionist assumes ownership rights over a section of rock that is simply not theirs to own. These self-elected owners of our ethics are fond of saying 'Too scary for you? Then go find another climb.' The answer to that statement is, 'Want to impose your rules on this section of rock? Then buy it.'  Legally, the ethics police don't have a leg to stand on.
But while this old and becoming boring squabble 'rages', a much bigger issue is coming into being. That is the power of 'authorities' to close climbing areas with a wave of the pen. In a collapsing economy, these authoritarian regimes are continually being robbed of funding. Before the higher-ups take their own bloated salaries from the budget, they'll gladly remove the funds to support search and rescue personnel and programs. You can allocate funds for S&R, or you can save money by simply 'outlawing' climbing at this or that crag. And somebody getting seriously injured is just the justification they need, to wave that pen.
Who won the ethics battle at a crag that no one is allowed to climb anymore?

@Chris_Trautz  Errors and incompetence occur regardless of ethics.  Climbing, in and of itself, is dangerous.   Hell, Rumney is over-bolted and yet, the major accidents requiring rescue of the past few years have all been related to hiking around the place.    I think the points you bring up are at least worthy of the discussion for say a route that has never been repeated, in part due to its perceived danger.  However, a route that has seen thousands of ascents in its current condition should not be altered.

Right.

This is already way too much discussion for retrobolting 100 year old 5.easy slabs that have seen countless ascents. Those slabs look like sprawling anthills on weekends of endless congalines of people enjoying timeless classic friction routes. I am unsure if some of the comments advocating this stance are just long winded borderline incomprehensible ramblings or satire that can't be distinguished from reality. Is an above argument that not gridbolting the Slabs will lead to some totalitarian apocalypse where Whitehorse is closed to the public? What a strange thread, and this is just the first page still

These are routes that got put up/ first ascents by climbers in klettershoes or hiking boots using crap gold line ropes or worse.
Instead of making the route ” safer” how about respecting the history and talent that they represent ?
I see beautiful lines I would love to climb and don’t knowing they are above my comfort level and aging skill set why would I - how could I feel satisfaction if I somehow dragged that vision and skill and boldness f a first ascent climber down to my level?

Why don't we then pull the bolts at the "brown spot" on Std?  (I think there's 2, one before you start down but I'm sure there's another right at the brown spot slab.)

This pitch was done for DECADES, and saw hundreds (if not perhaps a thousand) ascents without the bolts (although there was a piton placement just before you started down which might have limited the swing factor for a leader.) Many of these ascents in the 1960's and '70's were lead on Vibram climbing boots!  The F A was probably done in sneakers or rope-soled shoes.

So,clearly, the idea that protection bolts should NEVER be added to established climbs is not absolute.

Removable bolts could be your answer dragons, just dont get caught.

M Mobes wrote: Removable bolts could be your answer dragons, just dont get caught.

Ha! Stir the pot Mobes!

a beach wrote:

Ha! Stir the pot Mobes!

Its bound to happen, already has in CT