New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #9

Lori Milas wrote:

I think you’re jealous. The ‘stang is what you covet so that just about seals the deal.   

If it was an old one, I'd be more covetous.  Or a 67 Camaro... 

dragons wrote:

Aye, matey, that she does!!!

PS how did this thread turn into "Car Talk"? lol

I think it's wonderful this thread takes all sorts of twists and turns, bone broth to 'poetry' to Withania to snapped tendons to desert creatures to cars to shoes to mustard and sometime climbing stuff

Sorry again not trying to be a jerk just don't see the need to mock lead on sport. First off if the FA did his job correctly bolts will be placed at a good clipping spot. If you practice getting a good rest on your TR you should be fine. Lead head on a sport route? I guess if you have never climbed trad?  But really once you decide leading is for you then I think this is a mute point. On trad you have to know how to place your pro appropriately that's the reason why people start off doing moch leads these days.  I saw a climber on a TR clipping draws on a crack route in the gym the other day. My wife and I couldn't figure out why? You guys have shed some light on it. However I don't think it's that approach I would take whilt training new leaders. I do agree with mock leads on trad do to possibly of incorrect pro. Again not being a jerk God knows there is enough of that on MP. I just use a different method. Cheers

Lon Harter wrote: Sorry again not trying to be a jerk just don't see the need to mock lead on sport. First off if the FA did his job correctly bolts will be placed at a good clipping spot. If you practice getting a good rest on your TR you should be fine. Lead head on a sport route? I guess if you have never climbed trad?  But really once you decide leading is for you then I think this is a mute point. On trad you have to know how to place your pro appropriately that's the reason why people start off doing moch leads these days.  I saw a climber on a TR clipping draws on a crack route in the gym the other day. My wife and I couldn't figure out why? You guys have shed some light on it. However I don't think it's that approach I would take whilt training new leaders. I do agree with mock leads on trad do to possibly of incorrect pro. Again not being a jerk God knows there is enough of that on MP. I just use a different method. Cheers

When I led  my first and only grade 21 route i mock led it on TR simply because EVEN though  I'd done it SO many times (hundreds, literally) before on TR and NEVER fall off i had never really thought about gear placement and wanted to know exactly which specific pieces of gear I wanted to take with me.  I didn't want to take my full rack, I wanted to take ONLY the nuts and cams I needed, no more no less. This is because even though I can do laps and laps of the route (up to 21) I knew leading it would be a different story, so wanted to be as light as possible.  From memory I think I took three cams and two nuts.  

Mock leading is a complete waste of belayer time inmop.  you will learn a heck of a lot more by simply leading something easy enough for you to be reasonably safe. just fekin do it.  if you are top ropeing tens then lead a 5.5 and don't fall.  do that a few times and try a 5.6. repete etc. 

its not a mock lead if  you are already an accomplished climber and its a project at or beyond your limits. that's called a head point. 

Is a mock lead anything like a mock turtle?

I think mock leading is a good training tool.  Leading is more difficult than TR, you have more to think about, you have to remain on 3 point stance for a period of time while you place gear.  It just adds a degree of difficulty.  The act of placing protection is, in my minds eye, a repetitious mechanical movement.  Anytime you practice a repetitious mechanical movement you become more proficient at at.

It isn't a big deal.  There are other ways to practice as well.  

As far as cars go, my Dad, the car dealer, taught me that cars are tools.  The smartest way to buy a car (truck etc) was to decide what you are going to use it for 90% of the time, then look at how/what/why you would use the other 10% and make appropriate adjustment.  I drive an F450 dual rear wheel diesel 4x4, but then I pull my house around with me, spend a lot of time in mud and snow, drive up 2 lane mountain roads with lots of rocks.  It's rarely clean. And it is a real PITA when driving down town in big cities.  But get me where  I would rather be it is perfect.

I always thought mock leading in the gym was a tool for people learning to lead in the gym before they get tested.

I definitely see no harm in it. 

do whatever you want in the gym but if you happen to have a belayer and a real live outdoor climbing day and you waste it on mock leading you are destined to become one of those people who has a shiny 2k trad rack that they hang on a branch in full display so that everyone can see that they are a  bad assed tard climber while they top rope all day. that shiny rack will stay shiny and they will continue to be top rope heros for the rest of their miserable lives unless they take the leap and just start leading something EVERY time they go climbing.. 

Señor Arroz wrote: I always thought mock leading in the gym was a tool for people learning to lead in the gym before they get tested.

I definitely see no harm in it. 

See, that's the thing about this thread. 

Some of the other MP threads are like:

"TROLL!"
"STUPID QUESTION MOTHER FOKER!"
"YGD!"
"I DON'T WANNA READ YOUR SHIT"
"THE FORCE OF THE FACTOR TWO FALL ON THE HYPOTENUSE OF THE EQUILIBRIUM SINE OF THE MAJIC MARKER PEN MIDDLE MARK IS COMPOUNDED BY THE USE OF A PAS22 MOTHER FOKER!"
"WHO'S THAT JERK STEALING PANCAKES FROM CAMPSITES IN RED ROCK? STRING HIM UP!"

But we're all like, yeah dude, do it, peppermint tea?

Nick Goldsmith wrote: do whatever you want in the gym but if you happen to have a belayer and a real live outdoor climbing day and you waste it on mock leading you are destined to become one of those people who has a shiny 2k trad rack that they hang on a branch in full display so that everyone can see that they are a  bad assed tard climber while they top rope all day. that shiny rack will stay shiny and they will continue to be top rope heros for the rest of their miserable lives unless they take the leap and just start leading something EVERY time they go climbing.. 

Really? Is it written in the runes? Bugger. Tsk. Fuck. Oh well. 

Maybe next incarnation I'll remember this. 

Are top ropers' miserable lives more miserable than non top ropers'? 

It's almost like you're dissing top roping and we know some peeps might only top rope and we also know we want them to feel they're doing something worthy (un-miserable-life-inducing) which they are so, it's a bit of a conundrum.

Wasn’t it Lynn Hill who said something like, “Never pass up a top-rope opportunity”? I think of that any time there’s a top rope on something I know is way too hard for me. why not just give it a go? I personally enjoy all facets of climbing: leading trad or sport, following trad or sport, long multi-pitch trad or sport, gym climbing on lead or top-rope, gym bouldering, gym autobelay, buildering, big wall (well, BITD), scrambling on Colorado’s 14ers, slab, friction, cracks of all kinds, even overhangs, whatever... About the only thing I don’t really do is boulder outside for fear of injury (but I’d do that, too, with enough crash pads and a spotter). OK, I guess I don’t do snow/ice either but would if I could go back to my younger self (I’m 61 now).

Climbing is just plain fun. Period.

”Vy cahnt vee chust climb?! —Anonymous Austrian climber, BITD

dragons wrote:

Mark, How are you mock leading on autobelay? I haven't seen this.

I take two draws up-- one on each side. When I reach the bolt, I clip the appropriate draw to it. Then, I remove and clip to my belay loop. Then remove from belay loop and reclip to bolt. Then remove from bolt and put back on harness. I do this slowly--forcing myself to balance more efficiently in the clipping stance. Actually harder than but approximates real clipping I think. It is a demanding training method but one, unlike bouldering, that my body is able to handle, seems to have also made me a stronger climber indoors since I started doing it. Anything overhanging is going to be extra tough this way. But I have learned how to knee bar, counter pressure, back step and flag in new ways as a result.

Just to be clear! I live lead regularly in the gym and outdoors when a partner is available. I have a different work schedule. I climb with partners (have a number) in the evenings.  My wife doesn't like me gym climbing on weekends (fair enough).But I do find myself in the gym maybe once a week on weekday afternoons when hardly anyone is around (certainly no one I would trust with a lead belay), and I have found this technique useful. Troll me if you wish, but so far, I like the results. The coming outdoor season will tell the tale of course on the worth of this. But for "purists" who say "you just need to go boulder" in those situations, I say something that I won't repeat here. Would be injured and not climbing regularly if at all-- stupid.

+1 for mock leading. When I was getting started trad leading, I went out with another trad beginner. We set up a top rope, and we took turns belaying while we mock led routes, placing gear and bounce testing. We did this a few times, and in a few different locations. Neither one of us thought it was a waste of time. It was edifying. My once-shiny rack is certainly not still shiny. Mock leading certainly didn't ruin my future climbing experience. There's no harm in mock leading, and it can be quite helpful.

Does anyone remember this route that I posted a few weeks ago?  Ya'll were kind enough to have a look and try to figure out the crux.  Since then, I haven't been back on that route, but I didn't forget it, either.  Yesterday Ryan agreed to climb it for me, and work out the beta on the crux.  Times like this give me hope... it was a real joy to watch him work this out.
 

Cool, thanks for posting that Lori!

Nick Goldsmith wrote: do whatever you want in the gym but if you happen to have a belayer and a real live outdoor climbing day and you waste it on mock leading you are destined to become one of those people who has a shiny 2k trad rack that they hang on a branch in full display so that everyone can see that they are a  bad assed tard climber while they top rope all day. that shiny rack will stay shiny and they will continue to be top rope heros for the rest of their miserable lives unless they take the leap and just start leading something EVERY time they go climbing.. 

I almost spit out my coffee when I read this.  GUILTY!!!       Well, I don't hang my rack on a branch.  But  other than that...  

I was going to stay out of this whole discussion, since we have rehashed it on every single thread.  But these are evolving thoughts.  I wish Bob Gaines would weigh in right about now, since he just wrote a book on top roping... as possibly the most pure form of this sport.  

It seems almost anywhere I go to climb my eyes are much bigger than my ability.  I'm drinking in all the routes... pointing at everything in sight like my grandkid does in LegoLand.  The lines, the beauty, the difficulty of these routes takes my breath away.  Most of them are routes I would never lead in this lifetime.  NEVER.  It's no chump change to follow, or to simply top rope them.  It would be foolish for most people to ever lead the big ones... heck, I'm still trying to persuade good climbers to lead back up Loose Lady for me.  It's too slick, runout and scary.  (and it's a 10a)  

I am about to be in Joshua Tree again for a month... with a good two weeks of climbing.  I want to know it all.  I want to take my rack out and have fun on very easy leads or mock leads.  But I also want to pick up where I left off on those 10b-c amazing routes that I can only top rope.  It's the skills of actual climbing that I love... edging, crimping, learning to move on almost vertical slab, manteling, crack and chimney climbing... none of those require placing gear.  They require learning how to use your body, and dance on rock.  

Alot of veterans here grew up climbing.  Some are the original masters, and honed their skills over years trad climbing.  I started at 64 years old... a lot of us started in our 60's.  There is only so much time to learn, experience and do.  I want to perfect some climbing skills that will allow me to send the most beautiful routes... most likely on top rope.  I'm HOPING to convince someone to rig up EBGB for me... that would be exhilarating enough.  Plenty of people have broken limbs on that route.  Why would I even think of passing it up? 

EBGB... one of those routes I suddenly saw as I was walking somewhere else... and shit. I want to climb it.    I'll leave my rack hanging on a tree... 

dragons wrote: +1 for mock leading. When I was getting started trad leading, I went out with another trad beginner. We set up a top rope, and we took turns belaying while we mock led routes, placing gear and bounce testing. We did this a few times, and in a few different locations. Neither one of us thought it was a waste of time. It was edifying. My once-shiny rack is certainly not still shiny. Mock leading certainly didn't ruin my future climbing experience. There's no harm in mock leading, and it can be quite helpful.

This is also how I learned.  I think I am the cautionary tale.  I still don't have a good head for leading on gear.  I do it, but I'm pretty stressed out the whole time.  I do better with bolts, but I still have a lot of progress to make before I am comfortable with my mental game.  

I don't think this is really because of mock leading, though.  It's because I am generally a fraidy cat.