New and experienced climbers over 50 #4

I'm wondering if anyone can weigh in on slab skills.  On my last trip to J Tree we did a lot of slab climbing, and I was trying to focus on precision in foot and hand placement... trying to spot and hit the hold in one move, no adjustments.  I'm definitely still 'adjusting' and testing.    As the routes get more vertical, and the wall more sheer, I trust my feet and hands less.  I was originally coached "Don't pat the wall looking for holds."  This last trip, as I moved into 10b-c slab, I was baffled HOW to make the next move without patting the wall and testing hand and foot holds to see if there was anything below me that would support my weight.  (This pic is a 5.9, I believe, which went fine.)
 
Also, I realize some of the really good climbers here also have exactly one pair of shoes that works for everything.  I've been experimenting between two pairs... a Scarpa that is very tight and  somewhat painful, but has firm sides for edging... and TCPro which feels like a houseslipper and I can schlep away.  Is there any value to one type of shoe over another for slab?   

I'm spending a little remedial time in the gym paying more attention to precision than strength... trying to hit it right the first time.  

Lori Milas wrote: 

I'm spending a little remedial time in the gym paying more attention to precision than strength... trying to hit it right the first time.  

Good idea.  I can tell a poor kayaker by how they get in their boat (assuming no physical impairment).  My wife, who once drove heavy equipment for a living, can tell a good operator by how they climb into the cab.  Similarly, foot work is how you can tell good climbers from hacks.  Watch the foot work of those who climb 5.11 and above (indoor; outdoors you see climbers at lower grades, 10s, with great feet).  Foot work is the difference when trying to progress beyond 5.10(ish).  Those with good feet will look at a foothold, decide where and how to place their foot, then do it precisely in one motion, without touching any other part of the wall or hold except where they want their foot placed.  They also do not place their toe, then bob it up and down as if repeatedly bouncing on their toe will give them more friction.  Place the foot by watching it all the way to your desired place on the hold, press firmly, lower your heel, if needed (usually true on a slab with tiny footholds where friction is key), and go.  One must develop trust in small feet, and the only way to do that is to be precise in your foot placement.

Lori - slab climbing is my forte. The key for me is footwork and body position. You have to keep your weight on your feet and often hands are simply for balance or to hold a body position while you move your feet up. While you shouldn’t be pawing around looking for holds, sometimes you do have to look around and test options, the holds that will work aren’t always obvious by looking at them alone. Also focus on making small moves - you might have several small foot moves to make one move upward. These are fun climbs - require a lot of technique and balance as opposed to strength. Body tension is important, so core strength comes into play. You’re probably already doing some of these things, but here are some links to footwork drills you can do in the gym. It’s hard to really work slab climbing in the gym. When I’m on a slab, I’m actually looking down more than up I’m so focused on my feet! 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.climbing.com/.amp/skills/training-7-simple-drills-to-improve-footwork-and-technique/

http://blog.butorausa.com/2018/02/26/improve-climbing-footwork-tips-techniques/

http://onsightcoaching.co.uk/footwork-balance-and-precision

Locker wrote: IMHO the ticket to getting better is to CLIMB, CLIMB, CLIMB...(Not that it's ever worked for me, I still suck!)

and leave the coaching for the GYM...

EDITED: And don't overthink it...

Dude.... it has never worked for me ether!!!! 

Lori.... FYI. Josh really isn’t slab climbing, but a mixture of grip from the stone and the location of the edges. Once you learn to trust your feet you can stick to almost anything at The Tree. Real slab is found on God’s own polished granite. Think the Sierra Nevada! Stuff so slick you can’t believe you will stick but you will. I recommend that you start going to the westside ASAP. The Meadows will really open your eyes. One time I watched a dude prancing around at the base of “The Golfers Route” telling everyone within ear shot about some 12 he had sent in the gym last week.... and how he would FIRE this climb quickly! Well 20 min later he was cursing and crying because he couldn’t do a 5.6! So much to learn, keep it up. 
EDIT: to add- IMHO it’s quite alright to “pad around with your hands” ..... feel the slightest difference in texture, find that one tiny sharp spot and maybe use it. 

I'm a Trad Dad now. 60 with a 15 and 12-year-old. 15-year-old leads and I follow. Occasionally I'll lead something (up to 5.9). If I dropped 20 lbs I could probably comfortably do 5.10s if my arthritis lets me. I don't do gym anymore - the holds give me arthritis flare-ups. Planning to ride my bike into work once a week.

Chris Owen wrote: I'm a Trad Dad now. 60 with a 15 and 12-year-old. 15-year-old leads and I follow. Occasionally I'll lead something (up to 5.9). If I dropped 20 lbs I could probably comfortably do 5.10s if my arthritis lets me. I don't do gym anymore - the holds give me arthritis flare-ups. Planning to ride my bike into work once a week.

I didn't know you had kids, Chris. We'll have to get the families together in Big Bear next summer. My daughter and I still talk fondly about the place you told us to go climb up there. 

Guy Keesee wrote:

Dude.... it has never worked for me ether!!!! 

Lori.... FYI. Josh really isn’t slab climbing, but a mixture of grip from the stone and the location of the edges. Once you learn to trust your feet you can stick to almost anything at The Tree. Real slab is found on God’s own polished granite. Think the Sierra Nevada! Stuff so slick you can’t believe you will stick but you will. I recommend that you start going to the westside ASAP. The Meadows will really open your eyes. One time I watched a dude prancing around at the base of “The Golfers Route” telling everyone within ear shot about some 12 he had sent in the gym last week.... and how he would FIRE this climb quickly! Well 20 min later he was cursing and crying because he couldn’t do a 5.6! So much to learn, keep it up. 
EDIT: to add- IMHO it’s quite alright to “pad around with your hands” ..... feel the slightest difference in texture, find that one tiny sharp spot and maybe use it. 

Oh, just for a moment... I'm not in the crowd that can yet smack talk... fight over whether J Tree is or isn't real climbing, whether climbing with a top rope is or isn't real climbing, whether having a guide to set up anchors is or is not real climbing, or what.  I was all prepared to set up my defenses here, when i realized... what does it matter?  The only thing I can  bring to this game at my level of expertise is gratitude and a lot of humility.  The saying "I have stood on the shoulders of giants" is all I have to explain the collosal liftoff I needed if i was to start climbing at 64.  Without a partner.  And with no previous experience.  This is all I've got.   

I think back just a year ago when I was a shaking, quaking, basically terrified new climber... having a meltdown every time i faced a new climb--wanting to back out.  I was too nervous to even LOOK at the anchors and knots.  And I headed out every time, alone... so, gratitude.   

I'm looking forward to all that is to come including climbing at Yosemite, and yes, more on that slick stuff just up the road from me (Donner and Truckee) that felt like ice skating.  I can already look back on some terrifying climbs from just a year ago and shrug--they weren't all that.  I can have fun channeling my inner Ondra or Honnold... but the reality is I may never climb a big wall.  That HAS to be ok. (it's ok with me).  I won't scale the stuff many of you great climbers already do with ease.  I'm ok with that.  (but I want to watch... and take photographs). 

Meanwhile... I don't usually listen to rap... but I kept wondering why the song Lose Yourself has been playing in my head for weeks. Not only is that what climbing is to me... "losing myself"... it's the line "Snap back to reality, oh there goes gravity..."  Yea, climbing is an activity of gravity... playing in it, on it and with it.    

  

Señor Arroz wrote:

I didn't know you had kids, Chris. We'll have to get the families together in Big Bear next summer. My daughter and I still talk fondly about the place you told us to go climb up there. 

Sounds good - I have some new spots!

Lori... don’t worry about fitting into somebody’s “real climber” mold. You do climb! You have fresh stoke and you considered not going back to work!!!
I love this topic because of you, your attitude,enthusiasm, self doubt and the joy you get when you improve is on display. I find that very refreshing and sort of unique on MP.
Not that the REST of the posters are chopped liver but your insights about climbing make a good read.
  

Guy Keesee wrote:

Dude.... it has never worked for me ether!!!! 

Real slab is found on God’s own polished granite. Think the Sierra Nevada! Stuff so slick you can’t believe you will stick but you will. I recommend that you start going to the westside ASAP. The Meadows will really open your eyes. One time I watched a dude prancing around at the base of “The Golfers Route” telling everyone within ear shot about some 12 he had sent in the gym last week.... and how he would FIRE this climb quickly! Well 20 min later he was cursing and crying because he couldn’t do a 5.6! 

Here's that stuff you are talking about, Guy!  I don't remember which route this is, but it's one of the ones on the south flank of Daff.
I once did a trip to Tuolumne with two of my gym friends, who were stronger climbers than me (5.12 gym), but had no slab experience.  After I led a few routes over on Stately Pleasure, my friend went to start up leading something over there, I think maybe Sweet Nothings.  At the first bolt he stayed for a few minutes, looking up and finally looked down at me and said "I just can't make myself do it."  I ended up leading every route on that trip and neither of my friends fell following any of it, but neither could imagine themselves leading any of it. I think it's the mileage that gives you the head to do slab, no matter what the grade.  

Guy Keesee wrote: Lori... don’t worry about fitting into somebody’s “real climber” mold. You do climb! You have fresh stoke and you considered not going back to work!!!
I love this topic because of you, your attitude,enthusiasm, self doubt and the joy you get when you improve is on display. I find that very refreshing and sort of unique on MP.
Not that the REST of the posters are chopped liver but your insights about climbing make a good read.
  

No shi*t.  Lori, nor anyone else, should ever listen to anyone who demeans them or their activities because they climb "too easy", or only on TR, or only w/guides, or whatever.

phylp wrote:

After I led a few routes over on Stately Pleasure, my friend went to start up leading something over there, I think maybe Sweet Nothings.  At the first bolt he stayed for a few minutes, looking up and finally looked down at me and said "I just can't make myself do it."  I ended up leading every route on that trip and neither of my friends fell following any of it, but neither could imagine themselves leading any of it. I think it's the mileage that gives you the head to do slab, no matter what the grade.  

One of my friends describes slab climbing as 'boring to follow, terrifying to lead' - I don't think it's boring to follow, but yeah, slab on lead is an entirely different beast!!

Lori,
Love slabs— particularly tough ones (10s and 11s). For me, it is all in the feet with a bit of an assist from crimp techniques with the hands. I train crimp strength a lot. Attached extra holds around hang board for example. Basic footwork pattern is one foot edging with the other three-quarter to toeing/dragging in with toes pointed right at the rock. This is of course very situational but a good default when unsure. Shoes... you are well on the way there with the TC Pros. I added Tenaya Tarifas to my bag last season, and they came through for me on two 11- slabs. Stickier and softer than the TCs, they smear really well. The Genius is also a really good slab shoe and is my go to when I am on a slab route with a section or sections of steeper climbing.

Lori

 ErikaNW wrote: One of my friends describes slab climbing as 'boring to follow, terrifying to lead' - I don't think it's boring to follow, but yeah, slab on lead is an entirely different beast!!

I know this to be true. My friend, Anton, and I went up to do some climbs in New Hampshire. One day he says let's do a multi-pitch slab climb. Sliding Board 7-9 pitches 5.7R. I had no idea of what a slab climb was. Being new to climbing I said okay. That was my first mistake. The first pitch was long with one bolt in it. He tells me before he starts that if he falls before he clips the bolt to run back down the approach to take the slack out of the rope to catch him.

The second mistake was not knowing what a dike was on a slab climb. As I was going up, the climb got incredibly steeper. I look over my right shoulder and saw that when I fell I was going to fall into space. Now I was really scared. I tell Anton that it is really really hard. I would try to go up and would slid back down. This was not fun anymore. Anton yells up and says follow the dike. I had not idea of what this meant so I finally prayed that I would not die and slowly inched my way up. I saw a small tree above growing out of the slab. I finally made it to the tree, hugged it and tied off. At this point I was totally gassed out and sweating like a succulent pig.

Anton follows up to where I went straight up. He then proceeds to go out a slight angle up to the right. I tell him that I went straight up. He laughs and tells me that is a 5.11 slab. He then continues to walk up the 5.6 slab on the dike. I tell him to do what I just climbed and he tells me he is not stupid.

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/105909834/sliding-board

Women make better slab climbers than men. You usually have a lower center of gravity and use your feet better. One day at the Ice Parlor in the Moab area we did RP City. It is a face, crack, slab climb. Once you are on it, you will realize why it is called RP City.

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106096516/rp-city

There was about 4 couples there. Every male fell at the crux which was a slab. Every female walked up and made fun of us. They had no problem on the crux.

Very old pictures.

Anton at belay.

Me one an easy pitch following.


John

An account of one of my slab-leading misadventures.  http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1616302/An-afternoon-with-Kamps .

Lori Milas wrote:

Oh, just for a moment... I'm not in the crowd that can yet smack talk... fight over whether J Tree is or isn't real climbing, whether climbing with a top rope is or isn't real climbing, whether having a guide to set up anchors is or is not real climbing, or what.  I was all prepared to set up my defenses here, when i realized... what does it matter?  The only thing I can  bring to this game at my level of expertise is gratitude and a lot of humility.  The saying "I have stood on the shoulders of giants" is all I have to explain the collosal liftoff I needed if i was to start climbing at 64.  Without a partner.  And with no previous experience.  This is all I've got.   

I think back just a year ago when I was a shaking, quaking, basically terrified new climber... having a meltdown every time i faced a new climb--wanting to back out.  I was too nervous to even LOOK at the anchors and knots.  And I headed out every time, alone... so, gratitude.  

I'm looking forward to all that is to come including climbing at Yosemite, and yes, more on that slick stuff just up the road from me (Donner and Truckee) that felt like ice skating.  I can already look back on some terrifying climbs from just a year ago and shrug--they weren't all that.  I can have fun channeling my inner Ondra or Honnold... but the reality is I may never climb a big wall.  That HAS to be ok. (it's ok with me).  I won't scale the stuff many of you great climbers already do with ease.  I'm ok with that.  (but I want to watch... and take photographs).

Meanwhile... I don't usually listen to rap... but I kept wondering why the song Lose Yourself has been playing in my head for weeks. Not only is that what climbing is to me... "losing myself"... it's the line "Snap back to reality, oh there goes gravity..."  Yea, climbing is an activity of gravity... playing in it, on it and with it.    

  

Hi Lori,
All climbing is real climbing, even pulling on plastic in a gym...

In regards to your slab conversation I agree with Erica I think it was who talked about it all being feet with hands just balancing.  I use Scarpa Chimera shoes for everything, and they're great on slab as they are very sticky and very soft.  

In regards to 'climbing songs' I like the lyrics of the New Order song 'Temptation' that go:

Up, down, turn around
Please don't let me hit the ground
Tonight I think I'll walk alone
I'll find my soul as I go home
Up, down, turn around
Please don't let me hit the ground
Tonight I think I'll walk alone
I'll find my soul as I go home

Wow.  I just checked in and saw all these great posts on slab climbing.  Thank you!  And now I have some YouTube watching and reading to do.  And I'll check out those shoes.

I was told last week that the perfect weather for slab is 48 degrees.  Well, it got at least that cold so maybe that was the difference.  I'd like to see what a good a 5.11+ slab looks like... hard to imagine what could be more vertical or more difficult than what we were climbing last week.  

The thing about slab is it gets into such a groove vibe.  Just real alert, slow, forward moving step by step. 

Just another thought I flashed on today... I put on a pair of strong reading glasses for the last few days of climbing, and it made a huge difference.  Oh gosh... I have to choose between vanity and great slabwork.  My vision is ok, but with glasses I could see so many more tiny possible holds and crimps--the whole rock came alive.  Perhaps it's time to get some 'slab glasses' just for that.   And yea... crimping.  I expected crimping to be painful, but it was just exactly perfect for balance and getting a little lift to the next steps.  

Thank you, all.  This week has been shitty... It just got a whole lot better.    

Slab climbing makes my ankles hurt, Barbara will never ever lead another run out slab.

Oldtradguy wrote: 
The first pitch was long with one bolt in it. He tells me before he starts that if he falls before he clips the bolt to run back down the approach to take the slack out of the rope to catch him.

I really want to go to NH to do some of those slabs. John Strand was a good friend of mine and I'd love to go see some of the routes he put up - he was an amazing slab climber and came by his nickname (Slabbo) honestly. We have some pretty great runout slab routes in the South Platte. We were on one such route last winter where the 1st bolt was about 15 feet up, and then it was another 20 feet to the next bolt with no gear placements. My husband was leading, blew it before he could make the clip, and instead of yelling 'falling' he yelled 'run!' I was belaying from a ledge and basically took a flying leap off the back of it - he ended up about 12 inches from the ground. Close call. Good times. Heh.

Oldtradguy wrote: 
It is a face, Once you are on it, you will realize why it is called RP City.

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106096516/rp-city

There was about 4 couples there. Every male fell at the crux which was a slab. Every female walked up and made fun of us. They had no problem on the crux.

Very old pictures.

Anton at belay.

Me one an easy pitch following.

John

This looks incredible - adding it to the list. Thanks!