Climbing hard without the training program

PTZ wrote:Finding routes that fit you style of climbing is a good start. You have to figure out what is your favorite areas, get in tune with that rock and that style and you can start pushing your personal limits. .... There is no special formula, just climb a lot to get in sink with the vertical life.You don't need to train ereally but strong abs and pull ups will help.

There is a special formula, it has been tested by many people and found to be effective, unfortunately it's not that "fun", and most people don't like doing it.

Only climbing at one crag and focusing only on routes that suit you might get you some short-term gains, but it in the long run this will lead to more plateaus and burn out. If you only care about the biggest number you can tick, by all means, spend your whole life at Rifle working Pumparama or The Beast, but if you want to be a better climber, seek variety.

Mike Lane wrote: I have seen many people get as good as they can get, and the maximum highpoint seems to consistently be .13A. Anyone else notice this?

13a is an arbitrary cutoff invented by man. If many people truly reach their limit at that point, as you suggest, then that is firm evidence of the power of your own mind in climbing. Is 8a the cutoff in France?

If that really is true, I would imagine that people are working hard to get to that point, then they "let themselves go" once they reach it. The same should be true for 12a and 14a.

HoseBeats-
That's TERRIBLE advice!!! The only thing working a route to death accomplishes is your ability to learn and fail on the exact same moves over and over again as well as blow your psyche for climbing altogether.I've seen many folks do this,projecting something at the tail end (or further)of their limits and only once did I see someone gain anything and maintain a decent attitude throughout.The time you waste putting all your effort into a route that is over your head is time that could have been spent doing 5,10,15,etc...routes that would actually contribute to your climbing

The key to climbing harder is climbing a lot and laying a good foundation to your "trick bag",recognizing body movement and doing sequences efficiently,endurance and strength come through putting in the hours,if you really are motivated you'll come up w/ a routine of your own that eventually will stick,be it diets,hang board,lifting weights or just a ton of climbing.
When i was younger that's what my life revolved around and that's what will get you climbing at a high level,just like anything else,you get out of it what you put into it.

Mike Anderson wrote: It's not really clear what you're saying hear, but it sounds like you're saying you don't ever try hard moves over-and-over again, instead you only do moves you can onsight, or do in a few tries. If that is the case, you are headed for a serious plateau.

It just depends... But the most time I have ever spent on one route was 8 tries on a .12c. It took me three days, but in those three days I also onsighted several hard 11's and sent a 12b second go. I haven't sport climbed much since then but I think I've hit my plateau. If I want to consistently redpoint 12's and have a chance to do harder routes I'll have to start working on hard stuff. Problem is I don't like doing that.

I am about to move somewhere that will have me climbing primarily inside for almost 6 months so I am going to have to change something. I guess we'll see.

Also, I don't think there are many climbers, and hardly any who climb under 5.13 that are stuck because of strength reasons. I'd say that 4 outta 5 climbers would benifit more from mental training and body movement training more than they would benifit from strength and power training.

Ryan Williams wrote: I'd say that 4 outta 5 climbers would benifit more from mental training and body movement training more than they would benifit from strength and power training.

I agree with you there, but I don't think you learn those things most effectively by climbing only routes you can onsight.

I feel like after climbing enough places in enough weather conditions, you care less/realize how contrived grades often are. Guess I'm part of the majority of punters who uses the 'having fun' excuse. But here the thing... I AM having fun. :) And, leading that rad new yellow and black 12 in the gym or sending that sweet highball Boulder problem at Hueco I got on 30 times was scary/awesome, but so was climbing a frozen, snowy "5.6" chimney on Bugaboo Spire while thunderstorms moved in, or that '5.9+' at the Gunks in 100 percent humidity in August, where the pro at the crux consisted of an RP wedged in a flake I could move with my hands. Or having a golf ball sized rock miss my helmet by inches from a thousand feet above me in the Black Canyon... you get the idea. Its all scary. Its all fun. I know this is 'lame' compared to the philosophy of training and ticking, but it's why I climb.

ciao,
Phil

oh and I get schooled by 9 year olds [perhaps younger, you can never tell how old they really are] all the time at the BRC. :)

Phil Persson wrote:I feel like after climbing enough places in enough weather conditions, you care less/realize how contrived grades often are. Guess I'm part of the majority of punters who uses the 'having fun' excuse. But here the thing... I AM having fun. :) And, leading that rad new yellow and black 12 in the gym or sending that sweet highball Boulder problem at Hueco I got on 30 times was scary/awesome, but so was climbing a frozen, snowy "5.6" chimney on Bugaboo Spire while thunderstorms moved in, or that '5.9+' at the Gunks in 100 percent humidity in August, where the pro at the crux consisted of an RP wedged in a flake I could move with my hands. Or having a golf ball sized rock miss my helmet by inches from a thousand feet above me in the Black Canyon... you get the idea. Its all scary. Its all fun. I know this is 'lame' compared to the philosophy of training and ticking, but it's why I climb. ciao, Phil

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Call it an excuse, call it what you want, but I think there are enough climbs on the planet between 5.8 and 5.11 to keep me busy for quite some time. Getting stronger is cool, but I'm not going to live long enough to spend my time projecting stuff.

HoseBeats wrote:Find something "too hard" for you; it could be 12a or 13a, the important thing is that you are inspired and REALLY want to do it. Beat it into the ground and send after lots of effort. At points it will feel impossible, it will feel like you will never link it all together, it will feel like a huge waste of time. Keep trying, don't give up no matter what. When you finally send you'll realize it wasn't that hard. Most likely you'll have it so wired that you won't even be that pumped or even breathing hard. You'll hike the fucker to the chains and know that your limits are self imposed. Aim high, the worst thing that could happen is you fail on a rock climb.

The funny thing is that I only get that fired up by new routes. Its hard for me to get psyched for stuff that isn't a FA so for good or bad, most of my hardest redpoints are FA's. However, I usually have an existing line to project at the same time. If I pick the existing line correctly it helps train for the new one as well as creating some consensus for the grade.

And I like what you are saying about getting it wired so that by the time you send it you're finally climbing efficiently enough to hike it. Three of the FA's I did in the last year are all like that.

A final point about projecting is that you take the time to clean routes more completely and often gain much better beta. Seems like as I try things harder for me the little beta issues have a large impact on overall success. That goes back to points made earlier about technique.

This is a great topic, and one that I have spent a considerable amount of time thinking about.

Some of it has to do with the prevailing knowledge of what is possible-- if you were to take a group of fit climbers in 1965 and tell them that they could all climb 5.12c with 9 months of training they'd laugh you out of the room. These days a reasonably fit person starting out in climbing will encounter dozens and dozens of people at the gym or local crag who can float their way up 5.11 warmups with seemingly little or no effort. Just seeing that firsthand can have a big impact on the goals that a climber sets for his or herself. At the gym I climb at there are a few new problems each week that are legitimately in the V8 to V10 range, and I just don't remember seeing anything that hard 15 years ago. The people starting out today have an entirely different perspective on what hard climbing consists of than the Trad Guy who has been stuck at 5.10b for the last 20 years.

I tend to fall into the category of someone who can climb pretty darned well without any real rigorous training, but I am finding that as I get older it takes more and more effort to do so (I know, I know-- it's obvious). Even at 29 years old I look back at what I was doing at 22 and wish that it were still as easy to throw myself at a boulder problem all day the way I could then.

I think one issue that tends to stall people is the old-school "work your way through the grades" mentality. I improved by leaps and bounds as a 5.11 climber by flailing up TRs that my friends would set on 5.13s. I found that I could get through cruxes pretty well even 2 number grades higher than what I was climbing, and linking sections together would be a matter of overall fitness and confidence more than anything else. Not trying something because it's too hard for you is a sure-fire way of slowing down your rate of improvement.

Great responses! Thanks to everyone for chiming in.

Also, keep in mind that it is not just physical strength that will get you up your challenging route. What is just as important is technique and mental fortitude.

You can't really train to get your head strong. You just need to go outside and get on the sharp end. Also, you can't learn technique from doing pullups and hangboard exercises. You will only learn technique on the rock, or in the gym.

My advice is to dabble in the strength training and also get outside on the sharp end as much as possible to develop your lead head and technique.

i disagree with two of your points. you can train head strength in the gym by going on the "thousand whipper program". you can also train an aspect of technique on the hangboard - learning how to hold on as lightly as possible. when hong did some comp climbing years back he did pretty well. when somebody asked him how he managed to compete with people much younger than him, he said that he had a lot more experience and knew how to hang on just barely hard enough, helping him save some energy.

Couple follow-ups on the last few posts and my own previous reply to this topic.

I feel like doing 4x4's in the gym helped my outdoor confidence tremendously. This was total serendipity. I had serious doubt that exercise would help me in any way mentally, and was surprised to find that, at least for me, it was real effective mentally. Basically, it taught me to climb efficiently when pumped and to not freak out as soon as I start to get pumped. I think a big part of it was having a challenging end point to reach. You can't just tell yourself 'I'm going to jog for a little bit' or 'I'm going to climb through a pump.' You have to set a specific goal (like v3, v2, v0, v1 without any rest between) and commit to it.

On the other hand, I think the biggest factor in my outdoor climbing improvement has been building route pyramids. I guess this is in disagreement with Peter Franzen's post and an elaboration of my previous post. I felt that building 5.10 and 5.11 route pyramids has really helped my confidence and progress. Of course, it might be that toproping a 13 might help me progress as a 5.11 climber, but getting through the lower grades I think focusing on targeted mileage was much more effective than toproping a route above my limit. Any time I've done that I usually just end up feeling sketched out.

AS I get older I'm thinking that a lot of the harder routes, I'm talking .12 and .13 trad, is first believing that you should be doing the routes and then just getting a lot of mileage on them. If I don't have the time to go out for a full day on the weekend, I'll just go out and rope solo some routes. I find that what I call my 12 of .12 ( from finger tips to ring locks) has given me a lot of endurance lately and I am hoping that it will translate next spring.

I am also that I am having to modify it also as my body is adapting to the stress.

Remember that climbing is a triad of fitness, technique and mental. Most people work the first two but neglect the last since its really hard to work that one. I find that climbing with people who are open with what can and should be done is important. For me, the right climbing partners has meant everything.

Peter Franzen wrote:if you were to take a group of fit climbers in 1965 and tell them that they could all climb 5.12c with 9 months of training they'd laugh you out of the room. These days a reasonably fit person starting out in climbing will encounter dozens and dozens of people at the gym or local crag who can float their way up 5.11 warmups with seemingly little or no effort.

On the other hand, if you were able to join those climbers from 1965 on an "easy" alpine route in the Canadian Rockies, say, you might discover a newfound appreciation for their abilities.

I train, because I basically suck. I'm not bold, I rarely am focused soley on making the moves, not particularly flexible, don't usually stack odds in my favor by warming up properly, waiting for good conditions, or projecting things. So I try to get stronger than I need to be for any given route to compensate for lack of talent on what is mostly onsight climbing on gear routes in areas that tend toward boldness and sandbags. I don't recommend that approach, BTW.

But the best things for me, outside training have been:

1. Climb with people who are better than you. Whether technically better, stronger, more experienced, bolder...whatever it is, you will learn and subtly incorporate things from them that will make you better. You'll get on routes that are harder than you would otherwise, you'll get mileage following routes that are near your leading limit, and you'll see how hard things really get done...tactics, rehersal, etc.

This can be difficult, especially if you're one of the folks who are really nervous about unknown partners (not an issue for me, I'll climb with almost anybody and have had maybe 2 bad experiences out of probably 150+ partners, some of whom spoke maybe 3 words of english), but there are for sure people that want to give you a 20 questions shakedown, safety nazi routine, before they will tie in with you...tends to be much worse in the east than the west IME). It also gets harder as you get better. Lots of folks crushing 5.hard in the gym, not so many climbing 5.hard onsight on long gear protected routes who are willing to take on a subbie.

2. Diet, sleep, etc. The "hardman party all night, puke at the base, and send all day" thing is not conducive to climbing hard or well, unless you're one of the rare 0.5% who can do it. Accept that you aren't, and skip that last beer, get to bed early, etc. Don't expect to be climbing at your limit on day 4 in a row "on" during a roadtrip...structure your climbing days to tilt odds in your favor. Sounds stupidly simple, but most people don' have the discipline to do it.

IMO, (more for me than you):

Be Cyclical - Dont do the same thing over and over, switch it up every so often. Focus on one weak area or inability at a time, master it and move on to something else. I tend to oscillate between strength and stamina: doing harder moves and then trying to more of those type of moves in a row.

Be Consitant - Whatever program you choose be consistant and pay attention, stick to it and record, even just by memory, success, improvment, etc. If you don't establish a base line then you won't be able to recognize changes and adjust.

"train like you fight" - Trust your body to adapt to stress by conditioning to what you want to accomplish, sport, boulder, etc. Don't ignore the mental and general conditioning.

Rest- Don't let climbing become the measure of your life, other activities are the best way to recover. I like to swim, bike, and do yoga.

Have Fun - The climbing life should involve girls, friends, and beer.

Hey,

I didn't have time to read all the posts, so maybe this has been covered. I have found so many climbers are limited by adherence to sets of rules imposed on themselves- often by the greater climbing world, but more often its self-imposed limitations.

For example, my local crag is Rifle and often I talk to people that say things like "I don't like/go to rifle 'cause...

a. people there are jerks." Maybe in 1995, but not anymore.
b. its too hard." Not true- while the grades are stiff, there are more an more moderate routes every year.
"its too crowded." Yes, parking can get tough on weekends, but there are plenty of routes.

And Rifle is not the the only answer to climbing hard, but a lot of people go to Shelf weekend after weekend instead of turning right at Denver, and that place is definitely NOT the answer to climbing harder.

But there can be so many self-imposed hurdles:

"I don't sport climb." or "I don't trad climb" or "I don't like slabs", or "I only hang my own draws" or "I don't clip bolts." Or "I don't like to work routes" or "I don't like bouldering" or "Its too hard." or "Its too reachy" or "Its too powerful" or....

To a certain extent you are stuck with your physic, but the mental game can be a instant switch.

You can also add a micro approach and stop saying things like "that hold sucks", "my foot's gonna pop", "no way I can hang on to that", "I'm too tired", "I'm too pumped"...etc.

Quit blaming the external: "Its smarmy", "Its hot", "Its cold", "My shoes are worn out", "That piece sucks", "This clip is too hard"...

This isn't some sort of Stewart Smalley self-affirmation bullshit, either. Its just a fact that if you don't get in the arena- to paraphrase T. Roosevelt- then you will never improve...ever.

So go to the places where hard climbers that you admire go, and try the tactics they use, and see what happens.

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."

T. Roosevelt
"Citizenship in a Republic,"
Speech at the Sorbonne, Paris, April 23, 1910