Fix and Follow

Fix and follow on a multipitch route. I was thinking.. Is it worthwhile to do a MMO for your fixed line after leading? What if your follower on TRS falls and needs to be lowered? *shrug* it takes an extra 40 seconds to do MMO instead of an overhand on a bite/figure-8 on a bite/alpine butterfly for the fixed line.

... I think I'll start doing that.

EDIT: In retrospect, I won't be. I've learned/realized things.

Im not sure how much real-world benefit there is to this concept since I would expect that if we're using a more advanced tactic like fix and follow on a multipitch, the follower would have the necessary skills and equipment to get themselves out of whatever situation arises? That's a baseline expectation I have when I teach/evaluate others TR soloing. 

Additionally, one of the benefits of fix and following/freesnake is the leader not having to pull up much, if any, rope, but if one is going to have the ability to lower their follower any meaningful distance, then a substantial amount of rope would need to be pulled up to stack behind the MMO, which may or may not be feasible based on pitch length.

Can you help me understand the situation you're envisioning where a follower might need to be lowered after falling while TR soloing? If the system is rigged properly (both by follower and properly protected by leader) then there shouldn't even be a fall, just them sitting back on the rope with a bit of stretch. Do you use very stretchy skinny ropes like an Opera where even just sitting on the rope near the start of a long pitch could result in substantial enough downward movement that an injury is conceivable? 

The only other thing that comes to my mind is the small chance that rockfall or a medical emergency renders them unconscious or unable to use their hands/arms, in which case the ability to lower them would only reduce the complexity of a self rescue IF there was a substantial enough ledge in your line of sight to lower them down onto and not have them fall off with few/no other obstacles in the way and you had enough rope to reach it with enough extra slack for you to refix and rap down to them on a slack line. Outside of this seemingly low percentage terrain/incident scenario, you're gonna have to haul (not great with an injured/unconscious patient) or descend a tensioned line to render aid and start to get their weight off the rope.

I'm a BIG proponent of rigging releasable contingency anchors in canyons and when providing belayed rappels since they can easily and quickly solve more common problems, with very few tradeoffs, in those settings with users who often lack the skills and knowledge to solve problems themselves. However, in a multipitch fix and follow setting, it seems like rigging for releasability has a higher proportion of tradeoffs for less likely situations, with hopefully more competent users, and will rarely, if ever, be a definitive solution to any significant problem that is likely to be encountered.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts and if I'm way off base/what I'm missing! 

If you think that lowering the follower is likely perhaps fix and follow is not the correct technique for that situations.

Additionally if the follower is using two devices rigging to ascend the rope is quite easy if they have a couple of slings. 

I don’t think an mmo makes sense for reasons stated above. (Typically you don’t pull up rope) That being said, I think one of the main drawbacks of that system is the lack of options if the leader needs to assist the follower. (provide first aid, etc) If you’re hauling with a tag, that creates a lot more options, but fix and follow with just a single rope doesn’t offer much margin otherwise on that front. 

I’ve fixed/followed a couple times now as a 3rd and I feel I’m on my own and responsible for myself in the position. 

Anna Brown wrote:

I’ve fixed/followed a couple times now as a 3rd and I feel I’m on my own and responsible for myself in the position. 

Why I always belay followers, basically what you were feeling is you could die and nobody knows or cares.

I would echo the question of when would a follower need to be lowered while fix and following? Generally you wouldn’t have any rope with which to lower them…. 

Also, I’m an idiot…. MMO?

The main reason to have an easy-lowering method is to allow for downclimbing sections. Fixing the rope with a GriGri is a nice solution for that:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/118973932/fix-and-follow?page=4#ForumMessage-125111141

But like others said this requires pulling up rope first which you wouldn't do unless you expected a need for it.

I've fixed the rope with a Munter Mule Overhand (MMO) a couple times as well as used a grigri with a stopper not.  I've done it when I know there is some weird short down climb or traverse on a pitch and it would make it easier for the follower if I gave them a little slack.  Definitely not standard operating procedure and nor do I think it is normally worth the time.  

climber pat wrote:

If you think that lowering the follower is likely perhaps fix and follow is not the correct technique for that situations.

That is a very good point. I only do this technique with two or three specific people.

Todd R wrote:

Also, I’m an idiot…. MMO?

Munter mule overhand

Austin Donisan wrote:

Fixing the rope with a GriGri is a nice solution for that

My first thoughts about doing this would be that I wouldn't like doing that cuz it takes my grigri away from me. What a cool solution though.

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

I've fixed the rope with a Munter Mule Overhand (MMO) a couple times as well as used a grigri with a stopper not.  I've done it when I know there is some weird short down climb or traverse on a pitch and it would make it easier for the follower if I gave them a little slack.  Definitely not standard operating procedure and nor do I think it is normally worth the time.  

8hrs later, I'm totally with you, I agree.

The thought of mine came around 1:15am. You're asking great question that are making me think further than I had last night. Let me hit each of these in order. 

Ben M wrote:

Im not sure how much real-world benefit there is to this concept since I would expect that if we're using a more advanced tactic like fix and follow on a multipitch, the follower would have the necessary skills and equipment to get themselves out of whatever situation arises? That's a baseline expectation I have when I teach/evaluate others TR soloing. 

You're totally right. I only fix-and-follow with very few people who I know are knowledgable. They all know how to transition from up to down and also can solve any of their own problems.

Can you help me understand the situation you're envisioning where a follower might need to be lowered after falling while TR soloing? If the system is rigged properly (both by follower and properly protected by leader) then there shouldn't even be a fall, just them sitting back on the rope with a bit of stretch. Do you use very stretchy skinny ropes like an Opera where even just sitting on the rope near the start of a long pitch could result in substantial enough downward movement that an injury is conceivable? 

No ultra-stretchy rope, so the fall distances are inches at most. I can't think of a scenario (other than both devices failing) where the fall would be able to generate an injury.

Ben M wrote:

The only other thing that comes to my mind is the small chance that rockfall or a medical emergency renders them unconscious or unable to use their hands/arms, in which case the ability to lower them would only reduce the complexity of a self rescue IF there was a substantial enough ledge in your line of sight to lower them down onto and not have them fall off with few/no other obstacles in the way and you had enough rope to reach it with enough extra slack for you to refix and rap down to them on a slack line. Outside of this seemingly low percentage terrain/incident scenario, you're gonna have to haul (not great with an injured/unconscious patient) or descend a tensioned line to render aid and start to get their weight off the rope.

An unlikely event, I agree. an MMO would only aid if there is a ledge below them to be lowered onto.

Ben M wrote:

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts and if I'm way off base/what I'm missing! 

You asked good questions that brought insight. I don't think it's worth MMO'ing anymore lol.

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As a mini-bonus benefit to this thought I had at 1 in the morning.. I reviewed/practiced tying MMO's and I still know how to do it.

What I wonderfully civil and informative thread. Thanks y’all!

Jim Titt wrote:

Why I always belay followers, basically what you were feeling is you could die and nobody knows or cares.

Hahaha... that sounds a bit melodramatic. 

I'll say F&F does not make sense for most of our climbing situations, e.g. cragging or swapping leads on multi-pitch, but the few times my partner and I used the method, on some remote walls without anyone else nearby, I really enjoyed it both as the dedicated leader and as the dedicated follower. Since the leader never belays, the Grigri is only on the follower. The leader would reach the anchor, fix the rope, and then just relax before the next pitch. What I love about the method the most is there is never a need to pull up or stack the rope. The experience is very liberating. 

But to fully reap the benefits of the method, the party need to have a good assessment that this method suits the climb, and the belayer has a trusted TRS system. Once they start putting in some "just in case" measures, such as rigging for the need of lowering in case of injury or tying knots below as backup, etc., that starts to defeat the purpose. Might as well stick to the conventional method.

I'm not saying anything new. I'm just interested in the topic. 

nowhere wrote:

What I wonderfully civil and informative thread. Thanks y’all!

Don't get too used to it. :-D

That’s a great idea to rig this for a traverse! I had a friend backoff a fix/follow half way up because he was uncomfortable with one section of climbing that was a traverse. I offered to belay him up but he had already mentally committed to rappelling down.

I’ve been okay with the feeling of being on my own while fixing/following as a party of 3 but it does require that certain skills be in one’s toolbox. I had my rope get stuck once when pulling it up and had to deal with that. The unexpected perk for me when fixing/following is the rope isn’t slapping me in the face as my belayer is pulling up rope.

Rather than using 2 microtraxs the follower could use a microtrax and a sulu go or tax lov.  Then if the follower needs to go down he can lower himself  microtrax.