Fix and follow?

Conor Mark wrote:

Has anyone tried this with a Taz lov or similar ascent/descent device? Bulkier, but more simple than double trax and eliminates the need for a belay device on the anchor for working pitches?

I would not be inclined to use them for this. I do not TRS on an open system with belay devices like GriGri/Eddy/etc because they can fail to lock in low impact falls, and can back feed if not tended, potentially leaving the climber disconnected from the system. 

It is important that there are no backup knots for fix and follow, so I wouldn't choose a Tax Lov for this application. With MT or Spoc, once they're engaged the rope isn't going to back feed or slip.

I get that braking assisted belay devices aren't appropriate for this application, I'm asking about fall arrest devices made specifically for trailing with a chest ascender. 

Conor Mark wrote:

I get that braking assisted belay devices aren't appropriate for this application, I'm asking about fall arrest devices made specifically for trailing with a chest ascender. 

Ok, let me rephrase my response-- the fact that you can descend with a Taz Lov means I would not be comfortable with that as my only connection to an unknotted rope. Handle stuck open, etc. I like the fact that MTs only go one way. I bet you could do it for years with no problem, it just opens up failure modes that I don't want in my system. 

The real dilemma will be the rope; people will think you're uncool for using a rope fat enough for the Taz! 

Fair enough, that's what I was looking for 

Did this for climbing w three, smoother than the usual cluster. Used a gri gri above a microtrax which didn’t self feed but what we had and felt safe enough. Maybe you could back up the Taz w a micro and remove that if it came time to lower yourself as a follower. 

Christian Hesch wrote:

how long does it take a barely competent person to put on a microtrax? heck, even two should take what, 15-20s? Changeovers taking longer are more likely a function of people not caring much about efficiency, IMO. Focusing even a modicum of time on being efficient at all times usually saves much more than increasing climbing ability a grade or two...

Well - as a point of reference - my c2c time on the Nose is considerably less than yours on South Face, and that was with me on lead most of the way and not having been on the route in 16 yrs.  None of this spending weeks messing around rehearsing before telling everyone I climbed it in a day.  

interesting flex but cool story. I'll refrain from asking about mile times since this is a climbing site. Speaking of thread drift, I notice you didn't address the subject of whether it's reasonable to get a MT on harness/rope in 15s...

certainly open to competing opinions/observations but what i've witnessed in my limited time climbing is very slow changeover time (more often than not). F & F seems like it *should* actually improve changeover times, at least on the surface. We've already agreed that it seems to work better/best for 3 vs 2, so maybe skip the appendage swinging contest and focus on the subject matter?

James W wrote:

Well - as a point of reference - my c2c time on the Nose is considerably less than yours on South Face, and that was with me on lead most of the way and not having been on the route in 16 yrs.  None of this spending weeks messing around rehearsing before telling everyone I climbed it in a day.  

My C2C on Mescalito is considerably less than your C2C on the Nose and that was with me wearing Crocs because I had just had bunion surgery on my right foot and I also insisted on leading because my raging hemorrhoids preclude me from hanging belays for too long so its just easier if I lead everything.  

Kind of reviving the dead but I’m wondering if this is how Mikey fixes the rope with grigri? Just snug an overhand up to the brake side?

Johnny Sullivan wrote:

Kind of reviving the dead but I’m wondering if this is how Mikey fixes the rope with grigri? Just snug an overhand up to the brake side?

The overhand is the quickest and easiest.  Another option is to just make that a slip knot with the knot side against the grigri.   And one more option is to tie the grigri off the same way you would do a munter-mule-overhand just skip the munter.

Mikey Schaefer wrote:

The overhand is the quickest and easiest.  Another option is to just make that a slip knot with the knot side against the grigri.   And one more option is to tie the grigri off the same way you would do a munter-mule-overhand just skip the munter.

Mikey,

Been wanting to try this for a while, and made a point of listening to your Nugget episodes on a long flight a few weeks ago and this was my one remaining question. How do you fix the rope? And here's the apparent answer. Is putting the rope into the GriGri so it's set up to belay as normal should the need arise? I had been imagining just a figure 8 on a bight behind my clove onto the master point of the anchor, but most of what I found from Googling was a bunny ears figure 8 to two bolts. I'm thinking I'll more likely do this on alpine climbs where there are no bolts. 3 pieces, equalized, fig 8 on a bight onto a locker on the master point seems ok to me (or the GriGri like above). Anything else I'm not considering?

I pretty much always just fix with a butterfly knot and usually backed up with a loose overhand to another point.  Very rare I’d use the grigri method.  The butterfly doesn’t take any longer to tie than a figure eight but it unties quicker if the knot has been heavily loaded.  If it’s two bolts the butterfly goes to one bolt on a normal biner and then the overhand goes to a draw clipped to the other bolt, which becomes the first draw when leading the next pitch.  The follower clips to the other bolt when they arrive at the anchor.  No slings or anything else used at the anchor.  

For alpine climbs a locker on the PowerPoint works, or just a non locker and then tie a backup overhand directly to one of the pieces.  I always have a Petzl PAS with me so no clove hitch.  Partner should as well since they don’t have an end of the rope to clip in with.  Even the most weight conscious people I know use a PAS while fixing and following.

Curious on whether people use this system when climbing choss? Seems like extra rope dangling below is a bit of a liability?

My questions around fix+follow all pertain to the logistics of the tail:

Is the follower pulling up rope as the leader climbs, or are they pulling it up during the transition between pitches? Perhaps phrased another way, are you leaving the previously fixed tail dangling down the prior pitch or coiling it at the anchor? 

If the latter, and the pitches are less than a full rope length, how do you make sure the rope feeds well with nobody at the anchor tending to the coils during the rope pull?

one of the main benefits of F&F is that you only have to pull up the exact amount you need for each pitch (assuming it's not too windy/ no features for rope to get caught behind). Basically there is always rope "dangling". To make belaying the leader easier, at the end of your TRS, you clip your TR solo microtraxion upside down on the anchor to hold up the rope. One thing I've picked up from Mikey's comments is that most "rules" don't apply for all situations and some flexibility / other skills are required.

Jon.R wrote:

Curious on whether people use this system when climbing choss? Seems like extra rope dangling below is a bit of a liability?

There’s some choss safety factor improvement from this system because as a follower, the rope isn’t actually moving around above you as you climb up towards the belay.

The tail down below both climbers might knock off gravel but that’s well below all the climbers. There’s a *slight* chance of the tail getting caught in a pinch. Don’t tie a knot and remove those plastic caps. Be careful on super windy days.

@Blake, sorry I should have clarified... I guess I'm more referring to planned/unplanned trundling, typically of the small appliance size where it's large enough where you can't easily direct it. A lot of the stuff down here is lower angle and low traffic but am guessing it's pretty low probability you'd actually hit your rope and "pinch" it against the rock enough to damage it.

Jon.R wrote:

@Blake, sorry I should have clarified... I guess I'm more referring to planned/unplanned trundling, typically of the small appliance size where it's large enough where you can't easily direct it. A lot of the stuff down here is lower angle and low traffic but am guessing it's pretty low probability you'd actually hit your rope and "pinch" it against the rock enough to damage it.

I wrote my own Fix and Follow article that addresses some of the topics in this thread. See the caveats section at the end of my article. I do a normal belay on particularly chossy pitches just for the described reason. The last thing you want is falling rock to coreshot your rope below you and you don’t know about. So use good judgement when choosing to Fix and Follow!

https://www.freesnakeclimbing.com/advanced-climbing-systems/freesnake-fix-and-follow

I've never heard it called "free snaking". Is that really a thing?! Sounds goofy to me but thats hardly relevant. But nice write up!

Anyway, another 3 person scenario is that the leader anchors, pull up slack until on the two below and then attach your belay device of choice for use later.
Fix Lé snek.
2nd person TRS's up.
Then the 3rd gets belayed up as typical.

Ive done this when with a group and the 2nd had TRS chops, and the 3rd did not, although they climbed at our level, just not confident in the systems of TRS yet.
Also, the reason I put the belay on immediately before the 2nd TRS's up, is it allows me to potentially lower the 2nd if something gets weird. Love me some options.