Fix and follow?

I was listening to the nugget climbing podcast episode 19 with Mikey Schaefer and he was talking towards the end about how he almost never belays the second anymore when he climbs. It sounded like the second essentially top rope solos which I tried a few times recently. I know the methods and safety aspect of this has has been debated already on MP, just wondering how many trad alpinists are out there doing this on multi pitch? Seems like a huge game changer to me if you're comfortable with a top rope solo system. What PCDs is anyone using for this?

Nick Battaglia wrote: I was listening to the nugget climbing podcast episode 19 with Mikey Schaefer and he was talking towards the end about how he almost never belays the second anymore when he climbs. It sounded like the second essentially top rope solos which I tried a few times recently. I know the methods and safety aspect of this has has been debated already on MP, just wondering how many trad alpinists are out there doing this on multi pitch? Seems like a huge game changer to me if you're comfortable with a top rope solo system. What PCDs is anyone using for this?

I certainly do on occasion. Just did it last week. 

Microtraxion. Some folks like toothless PCDs instead. 

It's simply aid systems applied to free climbing. If the leader takes a tag line, it may be possible to do the entire climb with no one carrying a pack. Comes with some caveats, though. 

This article does a decent job of providing more detail:
https://www.climbing.com/skills/advanced-techniques-follow-on-toprope-solo/

Meaning, even when not short-fixing he's not belaying? Just relaxing at the belay while second tr solos up? Or strictly for short-fixing?

We've used fix-and-follow for the third climber when climbing as a team of three. That's a no brainer. Curious about upside if in a team of two and not short-fixing. Maybe I'll listen to the podcast but if you have a sense of his take?

Edit: ah just saw Derek's response. Being able to haul up the pack on a tag line is one good reason. Packs are fine on comfortable ground. I absolutely hate seconding with a pack when near my limit.

From above link:

During the second free ascent of the Southeast Ridge on Cerro Torre this past February, Andrew Rothner, Mikey Schaefer, and I were all able to free climb one of the hardest alpine routes in the world despite carrying the extra weight of bivy gear, crampons, ice tools, food, and all the other necessary equipment. The secret to our success was having the followers climb on fixed ropes with Petzl Micro Traxions (a type of progress capture device [PCD]), rather than belaying each other from above using traditional methods. This system allows the leader to haul a pack, eat, keep hydrated, and stay warm while waiting at the belay for the followers to climb the previous pitch; the leader also conserves energy by not hauling the rope up. The energy savings adds up quickly on long alpine routes, leading to faster and smoother ascents.

Makes sense on something huge and gnarly like Cerro Torre; can't see it'd make a ton of sense on, say, the Rostrum. How much time and energy would you save over 7 or 8 pitches?

Sirius wrote:Makes sense on something huge and gnarly like Cerro Torre; can't see it'd make a ton of sense on, say, the Rostrum. How much time and energy would you save over 7 or 8 pitches?

On the Rostrum, there's also likely other parties, who may not appreciate ropes hanging all up in their business from a party above employing this method. But for long-ish routes with gear to carry and consistently steep and/or difficult terrain, it's a nice system, even for just 7 or 8 pitches.

Just listened to the podcast after seeing this post. So it sounds like the follower is not tied into the rope, and when they get to the anchor they put the microtrax on the anchor and then put the climber on belay, with the microtrax below the grigri?

Also, when it comes time to swap leads, will the leader just untie from the rope and then give it to the follower (obviously making sure to attach it somewhere)?

It seems like this system would preclude the option of building the anchor with the rope?

Joel M wrote: So it sounds like the follower is not tied into the rope, and when they get to the anchor they put the microtrax on the anchor and then put the climber on belay, with the microtrax below the grigri?

Yes. The microtrax below the grigri is not strictly necessary; makes rope management nicer, though as the microtrax can hold the rope weight.

Also, when it comes time to swap leads, will the leader just untie from the rope and then give it to the follower (obviously making sure to attach it somewhere)?

Sure. If the rope is already in the microtrax, there's no need to attach it anywhere else.

It seems like this system would preclude the option of building the anchor with the rope?

In general, yes. But the places where a rope anchor might be of most use, such as a large ledge, are also likely places to pull up all the rope anyway and/or change leaders. Otherwise, a draw or a locker can often do just fine for the anchor.

Thanks, Derek! I’ll have to give this a shot at some point. 

One good use of this approach is when the second can't climb as well as the leader. It allows the leader to free the route, but not spend hours dragging the lesser climber (i.e. me) up the hill. The leader gets time to eat, drink, pee and update their FB feed, whilst the second is on a tight top rope and can drop off and rest at any point, or grab the rope and pull, or clip an ascender above them and pull, or even clip a sling to the ascender and stand up to make progress. As long as the second is happy with the system, they can relax and stop calling up "tight" just as the leader is busy brewing tea and hence hasn't taken in for 30 seconds.

if someone ever dragged me on a NIAD this is how I would follow the bottom half.

Slower and more fun sounds like it'd be a good fit for the RNWF. If you're short-fixing, jugging past those 5.9/5.10 pitches in blocks is always a bummer!

Julian H wrote: Don’t you need to coil the rope to create some weight for the self belay device to feed correct. And wouldn’t the coiled rope get stuck. Specially on easy climbs. Not to mention loose rocks. 

The need for this is overstated, I think. The weight of the rope without coils is plenty for a microtraxion to feed just fine once you're up a little bit. It'd be annoying for the first several feet, but beyond that nbd.

(Edited for clarity)

Julian H wrote: Don’t you need to coil the rope to create some weight for the self belay device to feed correct. And wouldn’t the coiled rope get stuck. Specially on easy climbs. Not to mention loose rocks. 

One suggestion in the article posted earlier is that you can tie a knot and hang a water bottle or some gear to start out and then haul it up and untie it once enough rope is out to weight things properly. 

Andy Eiter wrote:

One suggestion in the article posted earlier is that you can tie a knot and hang a water bottle or some gear to start out and then haul it up and untie it once enough rope is out to weight things properly. 

Easy enough to do that with the coil too, and no gear to drop or carry up the pitch.

Julian H wrote: Don’t you need to coil the rope to create some weight for the self belay device to feed correct. And wouldn’t the coiled rope get stuck. Specially on easy climbs. Not to mention loose rocks. 

No need to coil the rope as for this system you generally don't pull the rope end up--it hangs free, which typically provides adequate weight. This technique isn't intended for easy climbs. 

Yeh make them work for it. No reason to be a work hog and take all the manual labor. 

George Perkins wrote: Am I missing something to this?  Obviously I'm nowhere near an experience level of Josh Wharton/Mikey Schaefer (and I'm climbing Levitation 29-type routes, not Cerro Torre-type routes), but always interested in learning more tricks to improve my systems.  Thanks for the links to interesting ideas, and the discussion.

Wouldn't it be sweet if neither follower nor leader had to carry a pack for a climb at your limit? Yes, you could haul and belay at the same time. But if you haul and then are done with it, the leader can really rest--no need to multitask the belaying, too. They can look at the next pitch, snack, hydrate, take photos, don/doff layers, etc. All made easier without having to belay. Its really nice to not have to multitask. It's also no problem to belay some pitches and fix others. It's even possible to belay part and fix part of the same pitch. Just one more tool in the box.

It really starts to shine when there's more kit involved. Maybe you need some wide gear, but for just a couple pitches. Haul it and then rest. Bivy kit? Haul and rest. Tools, pons, screws? Haul and rest. Aid gear? Haul it. Bolt kit? Haul it.

When I used this recently, we were rock climbing but were also doing a long-ish FA, so we had wide gear, aid gear, bolt kit, some extra cams, etc. Was great to haul and get to chill from a mentally or physically strenuous lead on pitches where it made sense. 

It really starts to shine when there's more kit involved. Maybe you need some wide gear, but for just a couple pitches. Haul it and then rest. Bivy kit? Haul and rest. Tools, pons, screws? Haul and rest. Aid gear? Haul it. Bolt kit? Haul it.

This makes sense to me, ie, the closer I am to big walling, the more this'll be a good fit. It's a way for the first to fix at the anchor and zone out (what you do when big walling), but for the second to still climb free (way more fun than jugging).

I imagine it also makes sense in the gnarly alpine scenarios discussed in the linked article, though no experience to say.

But I don't think I'd use it on an all-day climb that's near my limit. For most parties, Astroman goes in 10 or 11 pitches. Of those, most of us wouldn't want to follow with a pack on 3 or 4 of those pitches. For the other 7 or 8 pitches, not too bad to wear the pack. Worth carrying 3 minis on the climb just to avoid hauling and belaying at the same time on those few pitches? 

Sirius wrote: This makes sense to me, ie, the closer I am to big walling, the more this'll be a good fit. It's a way for the first to fix at the anchor and zone out (what you do when big walling), but for the second to still climb free (way more fun than jugging).

I imagine it also makes sense in the gnarly alpine scenarios discussed in the linked article, though no experience to say.

But I don't think I'd use it on an all-day climb that's near my limit. For most parties, Astroman goes in 10 or 11 pitches. Of those, most of us wouldn't want to follow with a pack on 3 or 4 of those pitches. For the other 7 or 8 pitches, not too bad to wear the pack. Worth carrying 3 minis on the climb just to avoid hauling and belaying at the same time on those few pitches?

Why not just haul every pitch that is steep and clean enough to allow reasonable hauling?  Also, belaying and hauling at the same time is a nuisance, and not that restful.

I mean personally my arms get more tired belaying my second than they do from the climbing itself a lot of the time. Having the follower tr solo on a microtraxion would eliminate tons of shoulder pain from belaying them up.

Quite a good idea, thanks for sharing this.  I'm more comfortable toprope soloing that being top-belayed anyway, especially in situations where there are communication issues at play.  And since i usually carry a microtrax on multipitch already, this is a no-brainer.  Honestly I don't understand why this didn't occur to me a long time ago, and will definitely give it a shot on my next outing.

Sirius wrote: Worth carrying 3 minis on the climb just to avoid hauling and belaying at the same time on those few pitches?

Lost me here. Why 3 minis? Are you climbing party of 3? And micros work and are lighter than minis, if that's a consideration.

It’s a good option for sure, pending it’s not a crowded route. As said above. I wouldn’t want my rope hanging in the way of the party below. Plus there’s always the risk of the rope getting stuck when pulling it up, knots or no knots

Also curious about why this guy^^ thinks you need 3 mini trax’s...