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Fix and follow?

justgoodenough · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 41

Quick plug for the kong gigi if you're getting tired belaying your second up.

Depending on the route, I'd be nervous about dangling my rope. When following a route on jugs, I'm usually tying loops to prevent any snags.

Seems like a cool technique though for doing hard routes. The linked article from climbing says to use 4 micros (2 for hauling, 2 for climbing), so maybe that's what they got it from.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

In a 3 one time this system works well is if the team is unbalanced. The weaker gets twice as long to do a pitch and doesn't feel he is getting in the way or slowing the team. 

 I would slightly change the set up in the photos. If you don't extend the upper trax away from the belay loop, the two trax can meet and get stuck together. This happens when the climber panics and tries to take in from below the lower trax. They might also do this at the start of a pitch if the trax do not smoothly flow 

IJMayer · · Guemes Island, WA · Joined Jan 2011 · Points: 350

for those who already practice this, what is a good way to go about tying back-up knots?
1 Just one at the end of the rope, or multiple knots along the way?
2 Do they ever get stuck when you're trying to pull up the rope? If they do I guess you just have to rap down a bit, free it, then jug back up?
anything else about back up knots that I'm not thinking of?

Nick Battaglia · · Brigham City, UT · Joined Oct 2018 · Points: 0
IJMayer wrote: for those who already practice this, what is a good way to go about tying back-up knots?
1 Just one at the end of the rope, or multiple knots along the way?
2 Do they ever get stuck when you're trying to pull up the rope? If they do I guess you just have to rap down a bit, free it, then jug back up?
anything else about back up knots that I'm not thinking of?

If I hang anything on the end to haul up later I'll just call that a back up knot. I'm not going to bother tying back up knots along the rope as I climb. Seems on the order of an entire belay anchor failing that both PCDs would fail at the same time so it seems more a psychological reassurance then an appreciable reduction in risk to tie knots as you go. I haven't done this yet though but I believe most don't tie knots.

Derek DeBruin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2010 · Points: 1,094
IJMayer wrote: for those who already practice this, what is a good way to go about tying back-up knots?
1 Just one at the end of the rope, or multiple knots along the way?
2 Do they ever get stuck when you're trying to pull up the rope? If they do I guess you just have to rap down a bit, free it, then jug back up?
anything else about back up knots that I'm not thinking of?

Generally no knots. Two PCDs provides the redundancy. Knots get stuck, as you note.

Mikey Schaefer · · Reno, NV · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 233
IJMayer wrote: for those who already practice this, what is a good way to go about tying back-up knots?

Yes, no back up knots.  I'd say if you feel the need to use backup knots, I'd work on getting more comfortable with the system on single pitch fixed line top roping.  

Kerwin Loukusa · · Leavenworth, WA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 183

I resisted converting to this system for the last couple years, but finally tried it out while doing some bigwall climbing last fall. Bottom line it works really well if you are dialed, definitely practice TR-soling a bunch before you try it on a multi-pitch. If you combine this with foot hauling a small pack with a 5mm tag, your experience of multi-pitch climbing becomes rather civilized. Kudos to Mikey and whoever else figured this out and put it into practice. 

Sprinkle McSparklecams · · Bag End, the shire · Joined Aug 2017 · Points: 20

For pitches that wander or, say, turn a sharp roof corner where the fixed line would rub over, do you end up redirecting the line somehow, or is the point that this would be generally only used on clean, hard, steep, straight routes?

Kerwin Loukusa · · Leavenworth, WA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 183
Sprinkle McSparklecams wrote: For pitches that wander or, say, turn a sharp roof corner where the fixed line would rub over, do you end up redirecting the line somehow, or is the point that this would be generally only used on clean, hard, steep, straight routes?

It depends on what your comfortable with really, ie. how hard the climbing is relative to your max grade. 

If your likely to fall on the pitches and you are concerned about getting back on the rock, then maybe belay for that pitch then go back F&F for the next pitch. I have never redirected the rope for this method when climbing on a multipitch, I do use rope protectors and redirects to prevent this if I am working on a pitch with a static rope where I expect to fall a lot. 

Kerwin Loukusa · · Leavenworth, WA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 183

If your follower does want the ability to work a section of the pitch, instead of directly fixing the rope, you can pullup some extra rope (say 5-10 meters), then load it into a grigri/dmm-piviot and tie it off with an overhand or munter mule. (I guess an ATC would work as well, just harder to release under load), then if they want to be lowered to retry a section you can just undo the tie-off knot and lower them the necessary amount. 

MauryB · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jul 2007 · Points: 393

For those ready to take things another step further when a tag line would otherwise be unnecessary (i.e. not need for rappelling) and covering lots of ground:
- 2 micros
- 2 belay devices (I prefer grigri and ATC)
- single rope
- small pack (or two)

Simul all moderate pitches (whatever that means for you) wearing the pack(s) and using micros as running belays.
For hard pitches leave the packs at the belay, leader leads as normal. Second does fix and follow with the 2 micros, hanging the packs off the rope before starting to climb. Turn around and haul packs up using micro.
Rinse and repeat as needed for your application.

Mikey Schaefer · · Reno, NV · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 233

Kerwin's beta about "fixing" the rope with a gri-gri is key.  I've done this on sections where there is a short down climb.  Once my partner gets to that section I can give them slack if need be.

And regarding sharp edges and such, I think that depends on numerous factors.  How sharp of an edge, how skinny of a rope, how heavy the climber is, how likely is one fall and how likely are numerous falls.  If you notice the edge before hand just fix the line to the gri-gri or atc-guide (or even a munter) and then occasionally either pull rope up or add slack to the system.  This will change the rub point on the rope.  I do a similar thing on ropes that are fixed for long periods of time, though I just move them after I finish working the pitch.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

I've not tried the following, but it would seem reasonable for a party of three. On the harder pitches use fix and follow with the third waiting until the second reaches the upper stance. Then releasing the second's rope with the bags on the end. Leader and second then pull bags up real quick, while third is following. Then the leader sets off once more. Note the third's rope is being towed by the second, not the leader and the leader doesn't wait for the third to arrive.

climber pat · · Las Cruces NM · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 301
Mikey Schaefer wrote: Kerwin's beta about "fixing" the rope with a gri-gri is key.  I've done this on sections where there is a short down climb.  Once my partner gets to that section I can give them slack if need be.

And regarding sharp edges and such, I think that depends on numerous factors.  How sharp of an edge, how skinny of a rope, how heavy the climber is, how likely is one fall and how likely are numerous falls.  If you notice the edge before hand just fix the line to the gri-gri or atc-guide (or even a munter) and then occasionally either pull rope up or add slack to the system.  This will change the rub point on the rope.  I do a similar thing on ropes that are fixed for long periods of time, though I just move them after I finish working the pitch.

It seems like you could also deal with a sharp edge as the leader by using an additional progress capture device on the piece of gear before the sharp edge.  Or perhaps just belaying the follower as usual if the edge is that scary.

Brie Abram · · Celo, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 493

I've been preaching this here for a few years since seeing it detailed in Climbing and trying it out. It's a great way to allow the leader to haul up a small pack so neither climber has to wear anything on their back. It can allow the leader to eat, bundle up in a jacket, take photos, or whatever they want while the follower follows.

I wouldn't recommend it when the wind is whipping and your dangling rope might get blown somewhere you don't want it to get stuck. Do not put knots below you as you follow; it's one more way for the rope to get stuck. Besides, if you're doing it right, you're doing this on harder routes where tying knots as you climb is more difficult than it's worth. We carry 2 Microtraxions and an old Croll: A Microtraxion and Croll for the follower, and and Microtraxion for the leader to haul or for simulclimbing protection. An added bonus is it gives a legit reason for climbers to build anchors independent of the rope that you can spout at everyone who says "just use the rope". I think this should be more of a mainstream way of doing things.

Here we're using it on a simple 3 pitch route:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO3jic7GQ7Q

JaredG · · Tucson, AZ · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 17
Brie Abram wrote: An added bonus is it gives a legit reason for climbers to build anchors independent of the rope that you can spout at everyone who says "just use the rope".

Why couldn't (or shouldn't) you use the rope for an anchor in this case?

Kevin Piarulli · · Redmond, OR · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 2,103
JaredG wrote:

Why couldn't (or shouldn't) you use the rope for an anchor in this case?

Refer to the Nugget Climbing podcast episode where Mikey details this system..When the follower reaches the belay, a microtraxion is placed upside-down on the trailing rope so the belayer can pull up slack as needed to feed rope to the leader. One of the main advantages being that you wouldn't have to pull the whole rope and stack it before each pitch, but this means you need the leader's end of the rope to be free of the anchor.

Thanks for the beta Mikey and all, I'm excited to use this system my next multipitch.
Brie Abram · · Celo, NC · Joined Oct 2007 · Points: 493

Yeah, there are a few different reasons related to the follower not being tied into her end of the rope that's dangling below. There are workarounds, but it's quicker and less contrived to build an independent anchor.

Kerwin Loukusa · · Leavenworth, WA · Joined Aug 2013 · Points: 183
David Coley wrote: I've not tried the following, but it would seem reasonable for a party of three. On the harder pitches use fix and follow with the third waiting until the second reaches the upper stance. Then releasing the second's rope with the bags on the end. Leader and second then pull bags up real quick, while third is following. Then the leader sets off once more. Note the third's rope is being towed by the second, not the leader and the leader doesn't wait for the third to arrive.

I have climbed a route before with party of three, with all pitches less then 35M, using one 80M rope. 

1. Leader leads, then fixes rope, 

2. first follower follows on TR-solo setup, 

3. upon reaching the anchor follower pulls up half the rope and refixes.

4. Leader begins leading again, and second follower follows on TR-solo. 


If you have the system dialed it works pretty well.
Mei pronounced as May · · Bay Area, but not in SF · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 177

The Nugget Climbing interview with Mikey Schaefer got me very excited about this fix-and-follow system. The stars finally lined up -- had a partner who is equally psyched about it and a couple of routes in the backcountry that are suitable for this practice. This weekend, we got to put the theory in practice. I really like it and have confidence in the system. The follower is always in action, either belaying or top rope soloing, but the leader has lots of free time. The part I like the most is no one has to stack the rope. That's really nice when climbing slabby or wandering routes, where there is lots of rope drag, and/or belays have no room for rope stack. 

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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