Climbing Has A Problem

Will C wrote:

Do you have a job that doesn't require you to produce results? Where can I get me one of those?

Government, union or universities are great places to start looking!

M M wrote:

Government, union or universities are great places to start looking!

Yes the service members in uniform, EMS, the folks who built a million F-150s last year and the university researchers making medical breakthroughs and pushing the boundaries of art and science are all notoriously lazy.  And they're all super keen on letting their co-workers to lazy too.

Speaking as a former government employee, let me tell you- I hardly ever worked 60-80 hour work weeks.  Like definitely not more than half of the time.

My letter to IFSC:

IFSC Pres. Marco Maria Scolaris, IFSC Governing Officials,

I am writing as a concerned individual who values the well-being and health of athletes participating in all facets of climbing, especially those at high level competition climbing.   

It has become unreasonable to deny that the intense pressure to achieve peak performance, coupled with the societal expectations of an "ideal" body image, can and has often lead competitors down a path of unhealthy habits and behaviors. Your own long time team physician is one of those leading the charge to shine light on this issue.

I urge the IFSC to strongly consider making changes to the policies in place meant to protect athletes’ long term health outcomes.  As so many high level athletes begin competing in adolescence, this is fundamentally an issue of helping our youth climbers lead healthy lives… pun intended.

IFSC should institute a Nutrition Program headed by a small team of professions experienced in sports nutrition.  These staff could provide mandatory educational seminars prior to each comp as well as oversee the other parts of an improved program.

Increased education and awareness about the serious, well documented long term health consequences of disordered eating is needed.  IFSC should require national teams to provide proof of a minimum level of education at a team level.  Each nation’s coaches should decide what that looks like.  X number of hours per year, submitted with IFSC supplied paperwork filled out by coaches describing the program. I believe our coaches already care deeply about this issue and will take requirements seriously.

Current BMI standards are not adequate.  A higher value method of body composition is warranted and readily available.  This area must be treated with extreme care.  Naturally lean climbers should not suffer as a result of any requirements.  Simultaneously, we cannot allow climbers to intentionally harm themselves in pursuit of improving their rank in the standings. 

Please take steps now to address this legitimate and avoidable issue.

Respectfully,

Will C wrote:

Do you have a job that doesn't require you to produce results? Where can I get me one of those?

Not sure if you are trying to act intentionally funny or stupid but a lot of professional climbers do not need comp results, they make plenty of money without them. Most are on the social influence side of things but others have their own niche.

Bruno Schull wrote:

It's really fundamental: climbers with higher strength to weight ratios will perform better.  Therefore, in a competitive atmosphere, elite athletes will sacrifice their health for performance.  It's not entirely a "choice"...I would say most elite athletes are by definition sort of mentally ill, and in this case annorexia, body dysmorphia, and so on get amplified and magnified by competition into a powerful and dark cycle. 

Solutions?  There are few.  Make elite competition less competitive?  Celebrate and suport and promote alternative athletes with diverse bodies who will almost certaintly not climb as well in terms of grades and athletic feats?  

Maybe they could identify blood markers for REDs or other metabolic imbalances and prevent those athletes from competing...

But all these solutions are difficult, and come up against the nature of strength-to-weight ratios in climbing, and the forces of elite competition.  

I think this is a solid point. But we need to remember that these are athletes who chose to get into the absolute tip top of the sport and have optimized their bodies for it. No matter what level, life is all trade-offs and I think these climbers are aware of the sacrifices they're making. They just love climbing that much. More than that, the idea of barring people from a sport based on secondary bio-markers leaves a bad taste in my mouth - see cases like Caster Semenya, who was assigned female at birth but has a chromosomal mutation that results in higher-than-normal Test levels. 

I think the most compelling argument for some kind of ED-based regulation is that being a professional athlete comes with extreme coercive pressure that might discourage someone from making the best choice for their health. Elite climbers might very well be in a position where they feel like they have no choice but to sacrifice their long-term health in order to keep their jobs. If you stop winning comps and lose sponsorships, you stop being able to afford rent. But that comes down to a deeper conversation about what sort of safety net our society should have.

Will C wrote:

You said: "If you depend on results for your job, the temptation is going to be strong." I asked if you know of jobs that don't require results. Now you're asking if I'm being stupid because they don't actually depend on results for their job. So which is it? Are they tempted or not? Do they depend on results or not?

Ok I'm definitely not asking if you are stupid now.

Will C wrote:

You said: "If you depend on results for your job, the temptation is going to be strong." I asked if you know of jobs that don't require results. Now you're asking if I'm being stupid because they don't actually depend on results for their job. So which is it? Are they tempted or not? Do they depend on results or not?

Now they say results dont matter and claim social media influencing also makes them enough of money... Guess what? Social media is the worst place in the world for encouraging unhealthy behaviour and lifestyle. How do we regulate this?

There will be no win here Will.

I guess I count myself among the stupid.  

The way I read things, Doug implied that the pressure (in the context of climbing) for results leads some to pursue extremes…

Will asked what job (even outside the context of climbing) doesn’t have the pressure for results…

Doug thought Will was being obtuse, and (returning to the context of climbing) said results are largely irrelevant 

Will points out the seeming contradiction 

Doug declares him stupid

MM tells Will there’s no winning something I never thought Will was even saying 

I’m stupid for just typing all this…need my coffee

Lets make a list of other professions where the individual's strength-weight ratio can play a major roll in "job performance" shall we?  Curious if we will also be able to find evidence of high rates of body dysmorphia and disordered eating. This issue is not unique to pro comp climbers, and that's not a reason to ignore it.

Doug Chism wrote:

Not sure if you are trying to act intentionally funny or stupid but a lot of professional climbers do not need comp results, they make plenty of money without them. Most are on the social influence side of things but others have their own niche.

Doug, Will, you guys somehow leapt from discussing the pressures on World Cup, indoor climbers to discussing pressure on all professional climbers.  Are we now denying that pro comp climbers aren't motivated by comp performance?  We are out of touch with reality if that's the case.

M M wrote:

Now they say results dont matter and claim social media influencing also makes them enough of money... Guess what? Social media is the worst place in the world for encouraging unhealthy behaviour and lifestyle. How do we regulate this?

There will be no win here Will.

Your point is we shouldn't try and make improvements where we can since we can't make everything perfect?  Very cool.  Have fun reading your Kierkegaard before bed.

Nothing like a bunch of grown men on the internet objecting to things that will never effect them. At the expense of the mental and physical health of a couple thousand teenagers and young adults they will never meet.  

Again, it's all just so very flattering.  I want all of you at my wedding so we can virtue signal, together, in person like the good ol' days.

Andy Shoemaker wrote:

Lets make a list of other professions where the individual's strength-weight ratio can play a major roll in "job performance" shall we?  

I don't know about you guys, but rolls have a pretty big impact on my strength-to-weight ratio ...

#vicesignaling

Andy Shoemaker wrote:

Are we now denying that pro comp climbers aren't motivated by comp performance?  We are out of touch with reality if that's the case.

Seb, Will, Danial, Shawn, Honnald, Hazel, I mean I could keep going on and on. 

Thoughts on getting rid of the PED testing requirements?  The long term negative health effects are well documented and (prior to testing and ban) not all athletes felt the need to use them (only the weak minded ones?). I mean it's called the Open Category, so athetes should be able to decide for themselves how to live.

Doug Chism wrote:

Seb, Will, Danial, Shawn, Honnald, Hazel, I mean I could keep going on and on. 

...0/10 I hesitate to even respond...

Assuming I correctly figured out who Danial, Honnald and the rest are- none of these climbers make their living trying to get into IFSC finals.  Have you watched much IFSC in recent years?

And even if they were IFSC competitors (maybe you mean Sean, not Shawn) how does the existence of some who are not effected, nullify the reality of others who are?

You're sure that none of these climbers have struggled with disordered eating?  You must know them all very well.

Like just watch the video... 

Or just keep living in your fairy world and you will not have any impact on the issue.  No one that cares about the well being of these athletes is listening to you.  

This could be the best $10 you ever spend, Doug.

Will C wrote:

I don't think I made that leap. Sounds like a Doug thing. Didn't deny pro-climber performance pressure, either. Back on page 1 (maybe 2) I'm pretty sure I said that's the cost of doing business.

Will it be open bar? Family style or plated? Is it formal (i.e should I break out the Arc'teryx jacket) or can I get by with Cotopaxi?

You're right Will.  I appreciate you not denying that there's an issue here effecting some athletes.  I don't think it needs to be the cost of doing business as you put it.  We know that extreme low body fat is not helpful for peak performance, obviously since many competitors at the highest level have healthy body compositions.   But we also know, first hand from the physician working with the athletes, that some climbers choose to harm themselves by chronically denying their bodies of proper nutrition.  

Seems reasonable to try and "reduce" the cost of doing business to something less than a lifetime of orthopedic illness.

And, formal for sure.  If I'm buying $80 bottles of bubbly you can break out the dead-bird gear.

Andy Shoemaker wrote:

Thoughts on getting rid of the PED testing requirements?  The long term negative health effects are well documented and (prior to testing and ban) not all athletes felt the need to use them (only the weak minded ones?). I mean it's called the Open Category, so athetes should be able to decide for themselves how to live.

...0/10 I hesitate to even respond...

Assuming I correctly figured out who Danial, Honnald and the rest are- none of these climbers make their living trying to get into IFSC finals.  Have you watched much IFSC in recent years?

And even if they were IFSC competitors (maybe you mean Sean, not Shawn) how does the existence of some who are not effected, nullify the reality of others who are?

You're sure that none of these climbers have struggled with disordered eating?  You must know them all very well.

Like just watch the video... 

Or just keep living in your fairy world and you will not have any impact on the issue.  No one that cares about the well being of these athletes is listening to you.  

This could be the best $10 you ever spend, Doug.

You're right Will.  I appreciate you not denying that there's an issue here effecting some athletes.  I don't think it needs to be the cost of doing business as you put it.  We know that extreme low body fat is not helpful for peak performance, obviously since many competitors at the highest level have healthy body compositions.   But we also know, first hand from the physician working with the athletes, that some climbers choose to harm themselves by chronically denying their bodies of proper nutrition.  

Seems reasonable to try and "reduce" the cost of doing business to something less than a lifetime of orthopedic illness.

And, formal for sure.  If I'm buying $80 bottles of bubbly you can break out the dead-bird gear.

Then don’t respond because my point is correct and valid, you are simply wrong and the fact that you need to resort to insults proves it. It is 100% fact that climbers can succeed without ifsc results because many of the most successful pro climbers have. That is the point I made and the rest of the argument I never said. It was what you put into my mouth and argued against even though I never said it, another immature way people try to make it look like they are correct. 

Live and let live. Totally free advice!

Andy Shoemaker wrote:

...0/10 I hesitate to even respond...

Assuming I correctly figured out who Danial, Honnald and the rest are- none of these climbers make their living trying to get into IFSC finals.  Have you watched much IFSC in recent years?

You know damn well he meant Daniel Woods, and while the examples he provided were absolutely awful as you pointed out, his point is still the same. There are plenty of comp climbers who left the competitive side and were highly successful on real rock (Patxi, Natalia Grossman, Ashima, Oriane, Ondra, Killian, DWoods, Schubert, Alex Johnson, Magnus, etc.). Though I’m not sure that is the same point you are trying to convey  

You're sure that none of these climbers have struggled with disordered eating?  You must know them all very well.

Half of the fad diets these days can be considered “eating disorders” by the textbook definition. I agree it’s hard to identify many eating disorders based solely on appearance, but anorexia is certainly one that can be sometimes easily ruled out in some folk. I think we can all agree Sharma or Jimmy Webb likely never suffered from anorexia. Maybe I’m wrong, but I just don’t think you can carry a certain amount of muscle mass on certain eating disorders like anorexia. 

Doug Chism wrote:

Then don’t respond because my point is correct and valid, you are simply wrong and the fact that you need to resort to insults proves it. It is 100% fact that climbers can succeed without ifsc results because many of the most successful pro climbers have. That is the point I made and the rest of the argument I never said. It was what you put into my mouth and argued against even though I never said it, another immature way people try to make it look like they are correct. 

My apologies, I misunderstood the point you are trying to make.  Of course there are comp climbers who no longer compete, I don't see what bearing this has in a conversation about improving IFSC's policies.  

Are you saying the way to fix issues in competition is to not have people competing?  That is technically a solution to the problem Dr. Schoffl and others wants to solve.

Brilliant. I doordashed some humble pie.  

The horse is dead, Grug Grug was right- the vocal minority repeating "not a problem for me, therefore not a problem for any" has once again made an otherwise meaningful conversation irrelevant.

Is it climbing, or is it you. . .?

Bruno Schull wrote:

Hey Weese Ritherspoon, 

Your post was heartfelt--I'll give you that.

But take a step back and slow down....

I apologize if my tone seemed flippant or dismissive, but that was not my intent.  My goal with my last post was to list the things I had read in the thread so far that could make a difference.  I did not watch the video.  Sometimes I like to think things through before hearing the viewpoints of others.  It sounds like the doctors were talking about providing mental health counseling.  Good idea--we should add that to the list.  

Now, you've thrown some strong language in my direction.  I think you should examine your assumptions.

To begin with, I count myself among the people in the world who have a "sports induced" eating disorder.  I was a competitive cyclist at a respectable level for 15 years in adolescece through my twenties.  That's basically all I did until I was about 30.  A coach I once had went around the room poking the cyclists in the group.  "All the skin on your body," he said, "Should be like the skin on the back of you hand."  He pinched the skin on the back of his hand for emphasis.  When your dreams and sense of self worth are wrapped up in how fast you can go on a bicycle, those kinds of words stay with you.  30 years later, I eat like a monk.  Mostly vegetarian.  No unsaturated fat.  No cheese.  Only low fat or skim milk.  No cookies, cakes, sweets, or unecessary calories of any kind, or only very rarely, and with huge guilt afterward alleviated by obsessive exercise.  Eating out or when traveling is hard.  I often bring my own food.  Everybody comments about what I eat.  I chronically edge near low grade iron difficiency and anemia.  Absolutely no alcohol or other drugs (except my medications for OCD and anxiety).  I don't think my eating habits are only because of sport, but I think competitive sport exacerbated and encouraged what probably would have developed normally.  So I fucking get it.  

Second, as soon as I stopped bicycle racing, I became a high school teacher.  I have worked with teenagers and young adults for about 20 years. Teaching is as much about counseling as delivering content.  I have had many students with ED, and I have learned to recognize the signs, and take steps to help them when possible.  I've leared a huge amount, and in a few cases I've made a difference.  I've also had a students that I cared for deeply who developed an ED and dissapeared.   One girl still haunts me.  Could I have recognized it sooner?  Could I have done more?  And so on.  If you care about students you wil inevitably encounter stories like this.  

Anyway, consider carefully what you write.  Behind what you might view as a casual or dissmissive attitude on this site often lies deep experience.  

Saturated animal fats are healthy (despite being told otherwise). B12 is necessary and is bioavailable in animal protein. 

The Standard American Diet (SAD) is killing people. 

Dave MacLeod's 2 month experiment of only eating McDonald's beef patis resulted in strength gains and improved bouldering performance. His comprehensive blood panel at the end of the experiment was better than his baseline at the start. Prior to the experiment,  MacLeod subscribed to a ketogenic diet. His carnivore diet yielded impressive results. 

I think much of the pushback on the hard-core virtue signals here is just the title of the thread Climbing Has A Problem. The title would make more sense if it was Gym Climbing Competitions Have a Problem.

I'd guess as far as non competition climbing goes there is no problem at all unless you consider .01% of the population a big problem.