New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #14

Greg Maschiwrote:

As I age my strength diminishes, my climbing ability remains constant,I frequently surprise myself by finding “ easier “ solutions to the difficulties. I also frequently wonder what I was , and am capable of, just another reason why I love this game we play.

Well put. I've only been climbing for 9 years since I turned 50 and feel my 'ability' (if one considers the grades I climb as 'ability') has been pretty steady for the last three years or so, although it ebbs and flows. My commentary on this route at my local crag over a course of years shows how my progress goes... Not sure if the link will work and show only my logged ascents... 

https://www.thecrag.com/en/climbing/australia/morialta/route/13537411/ascents/by/carlmaloschneider

Mark Frumkinwrote:

rgold, I politely disagree with you. I think the difference between people that understand how important technique is & those that do not is the difference between amateurs & professionals. I have always performed against men that were much stronger than me. 

I don't perform nor have I ever wanted to be competitive in climbing or mountaineering. I do them for the love. 

I grew up with two loves, the mountains & racing. I chose to race Motorcycles for a living & I go to the mountains for my head. 

To do any physical sport at a professional level it is ALL about technique! How & where you build strength is more important than building strength.

I'll take a weakling that knows how to use their body over a strong guy every day. 

It's hard to train a person that is strong or has talent. 

Life is counterintuitive. 

I don't think you are reacting to anything I actually said. I never saId technique isn't important, and mentioned that people may think strength is important when it is technique that is lacking.  I don't dispute the role of technique at any expert level, not just the professional level.  But it is also not uncommon for some people to minimize the role of strength in hard climbing, and make it sound as if some mystical "technique" will get you up hard overhanging rock without the accompanying strength, power, and endurance that's actually required.  And let me emphasize again that without enough strength and endurance, you can't even begin to deploy technique; everyone I know has remarked at one point or another how their technique deteriorated when they get tired; this is because that technique requires strength and endurance for its application.

When you say, "I'll take a weakling that knows how to use their body over a strong guy every day.," you are setting up a false dichotomy that suggests that one somehow has to choose between strength and technique, as opposed to reality, where people try to progress in both areas.  Beyond climbing, strength training has become a integral component of just about every sport, and there is a far-flung industry catering to athletes who have realized that critical as technique may be, they need strength and endurance to be competitive.

So after all this, my point is, don't tell people who are not strong that all they have to do is work on their technique.  They're gonna need both.

Yes Senor, you underestimate their strength.

I think you folks don't know what technique is!

It's not some magical thing.

It is learning to move your body to get the most out of it. If you want to get strong or good at something it's best to do it in a way that gives you the most for what you put in.

I was a professional athlete, I know what I'm talking about.

Technique will not make up for lack of training or strength. It is the base of your training the base of building your strength.

Johnny Wooden the greatest coach of all time started his new recruits (all of which were already national champions before coming to UCLA) by teaching them how to put their socks on properly.

You start at the bottom & you build a solid base & from there you become the best you can be!

Lori, this is a strength to weight ratio game. You have to work on your strength all the time.

I’m sorry, I’d like to contribute to whatever discussion is going on, but I have been completely unable to focus on any words in this thread ever since Senor posted that picture of Jason Mamoa.
Hallelujah! It’s pouring rain out there!

Mark Frumkinwrote:

Yes Senor, you underestimate their strength.

You're misreading me. If you knew me in real life and some of the women I climb with we'd have a great laugh about it. 

phylp phylpwrote:

I’m sorry, I’d like to contribute to whatever discussion is going on, but I have been completely unable to focus on any words in this thread ever since Senor posted that picture of Jason Mamoa.
Hallelujah! It’s pouring rain out there!

I think we're talking about if women are going to enslave men, and whether rgold can beat señor in an arm wrestling competition. Something like that anyway... 

Phylp I know! Senor is up to something.  He throws in Mamoa or mentions Pitt when he wants to tease the animals.  By the way, Carl mentioned liking to watch the cute guys climb. I have discovered one law  of outdoor climbing: all male climbers are cute climbers.  Without exception.    

With regard to climbing: I’ll take 10% gains anywhere I can find them.  I have this fantasy that now some of us are past the casual schlepping and are looking for performance—and I like how Mark phrases the work involved.  On top of everything else a climber deals with we have to add in the vagaries of age.  

I’m glad I had such a shitty time last time I was out (not with Bob) making an attempt on Gait of Power.  What needs to change here—weight, strength, flexibility, attitude?  Actually “e”, all of the above.  So, getting busy...

I woke up to snow yesterday and it was such a beautiful landscape, so quiet, with some kind of footprints by my front door. Coyote maybe?  This morning in Roseville I am listening to traffic, we somehow got put in a room directly over the 80fwy.  Its been awhile since I heard noise.  

Senor, please take no offense in my words, there is none meant.

I have one goal here & in life, which is to help. 

Life is counterintuitive. Gut feelings are usually gas.

If you tell someone what they want to hear they will believe it if you charge them money & lie to them they will believe it! 

If for free you give them the secret to success they will ignore it. & sometimes go as far as calling you a liar.

& that's not just in sports. 

GabeOwrote:

Everything you say is in your post is true, but I have a specific question about the above.

I intend, if I am able, to climb into my seventies. I know that a strength decline is inevitable. But you make no mention of declines in technique.  I hesitate to hope that technique might be something closer to immutable (though as you say, only able to be deployed with the strength required).  Can you speak at all to what you have experienced, and the experience of your peers, in terms of how well your mind-body connection has held up, in terms of your ability to solve technically complex climbing sequences, when you know you have the physical strengths?  I know that my balance and agility, even at 50, is not what it was at 30.  Certainly the losses are small enough that they are more than made up for by the many other tricks I have picked up through the years. But I imagine there must be a point of diminishing returns?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

GO

Gabe - I guess I have already achieved your goal - although I'm not as old as Rich.  But I hope I'm not done yet.  Thinking about what is declining (lots to think about) that is impacting my climbing ability there are a number of interconnected things.  The decline is definitely not linear but more of a (fall off)  step function with steps occurring every 5-6 years ever since I turned 50 - that was 20+ years ago.  I do sense the steps are getting more frequent.  Some of these steps are injury induced - I've had quite a few with corresponding surgeries (both shoulders and 1 knee) - but sometimes it just seems to be random - 1 day I can't do something anymore.  

For me, strength has not decreased that much.  I can still do plenty of pullups - probably 75% of what I could do 50 years ago, plus I sense if I dropped the 5 pounds to be where I was in my 20's I'd be even closer.  Although, as Rich said, grip strength is much more important - and I don't think I have lost that much there - been fortunate to avoid hand injuries.  And its not technique really either - I generally know or figure out quickly what the sequence should be,

But its a couple of other things that are part of the whole package - flexibility and balance.  I've never had any flexibility but my technique has sort of adapted.  But now the idea of doing a full on over the head heel hook seems pretty daunting.  But balance has probably declined even worse - just simple hiking - boulder hopping, stream crossings - are increasingly challenging.  If I can hold onto something (hiking pole) it s fine.  This translates to rock - a pure friction slab is much harder for me then it used to be.  All those old time no-hands boulder problems just don't happen anymore - feel really clumsy.

But I think the biggest decline is my ability to "try hard" - to the death.  Just don't have the desire to fight for it as much anymore.

Hopefully this doesn't come across as a downer - I'm very grateful for what I can do - and still imagine I'll be able to do a lot for a few more years.

You'e a whippersnapper - many more years...

Mark Frumkinwrote:

Senor, please take no offense in my words, there is none meant.

None was taken. I was just marveling at how sometimes we set out to say one thing and it's received as totally different. 

Mark Frumkinwrote:

rgold, I politely disagree with you. I think the difference between people that understand how important technique is & those that do not is the difference between amateurs & professionals. I have always performed against men that were much stronger than me. 

I don't perform nor have I ever wanted to be competitive in climbing or mountaineering. I do them for the love. 

I grew up with two loves, the mountains & racing. I chose to race Motorcycles for a living & I go to the mountains for my head. 

To do any physical sport at a professional level it is ALL about technique! How & where you build strength is more important than building strength.

I'll take a weakling that knows how to use their body over a strong guy every day. 

It's hard to train a person that is strong or has talent. 

Life is counterintuitive. 

Hmm, it's a bit more nuanced as that even in motorcycle sport, the balance between talent, technique, strength and fitness is a fine one. You can compensate to a certain extent by improving one if another is lacking but none of them replace the others. And talent is non-negotiable.

I'll guess you were a road racer or flat-tracker, not off-roader!

In my youth I managed to get to a good level as a climber by a modicum of talent and a lot of strength and bravery but soon reached the limitations of those as more talented climbers with better technique passed my level. So I changed to racing dirt bikes and managed to become a pro enduro rider for Yamaha Europe where we had the services of a professional trainer ( from California where he looked after the West coast MX team). 

He was good because he was willing to analyse and learn when presented with a rag-bag of riders ( we had all won nationals)  and not only see our weaknesses but our strengths. The eye-opener for him was our first fitness test which we were supposed to pass before we signed our contracts, our 125 rider was a skinny dwarf who ran marathons and I'm a strong, fat beer drinking 94kg lump who at that time rode big-bore 4 strokes who was going to ride the big pig (IT 465). The annual  fitness test was dumped thank god (it was an idea introduced by Husqvarna a few years earlier ignoring the success of the late Joel Robert, probably the fattest guy to win a world MX title). The eye-opener for our trainer was when our 125 rider ( 2nd in the British championship that year) broke his ankle and I took over his ride for  an international and made 4th place, best ever result for Yamaha.  I'd never in my life ridden anything smaller than an open-class bike but brutallity made up for skill.

The point is it depends on which part of which sport where the four factors are are more important BUT the will to succeed is always the dominant one, it drives you to improve, train harder, work on technique or get stronger. Talent is always the joker in the pack.

We don't get much snow at Joshua Tree, but yesterday was a winter wonderland. Snowing again this morning....a little bit of winter has arrived in the desert.

The January I turned 50, my son turned 13. We shared a birthday cake with rather a lot of candles!

I could win at arm wrestling him then, but that lasted only a few more years. That testosterone thing. 

Now, he is careful not to break my wrist. And I've got whiskers. Sigh. And still no guy muscles. Not fair. 

In terms of keeping what we have? Depending on where we are, I do think most of us can build, some, keep most of it, and eventually find ways to work with what we have. Far more than what is expected of "normal" old people.

Adjacent in time to this silliness on Rollercoaster, was an amusing exchange with one of our over 50 peeps, Jay Goodwin. He is rather short, and I was arguing with him about the start on this being a challenge for me.

Now, Rollercoaster is the first route I did at City of Rocks, maybe five years ago. I lead it, too, only about my third shot at leading. I'm sure we stick clipped the first bolt, but still, it was a lead.

On recent trips? The start is simply a no go. Partly me, but it's perhaps the most climbed route in the park.

That horizontal shelf is too high for me to get onto. I need hands. So, I need what my right foot is on, or the jug next to it. 

Jay stood right beside me. 

And was dumfounded that I, indeed, cannot reach that hold.

However.....

It is a tiny little jump.

Will I lead something with a dyno to a single hand for the start? 

Probably not.

But will I work it on top rope?

You bet! 

I'm at a point where grade, style, reaching the anchors, or even staying on route, is just not important. Sometimes? 

It's one single move that's fun. 

A whole lot of this is arbitrary.

These days? That extends to most everything. It's rather nice, to apply climbing try hard to day to day life....or not. 

Everything I've got now, is a gift to savor. 

So, when is the arm wrestling tournament? 

Best, Helen

EDIT to add, Jay is one of the guys who put up hard shit at COR, bitd. And he is still doing developing and FAs! 

"Everything I've got now, is a gift to savor."

I think you've got that right Helen. I've had a long career guiding, and I've seen many clients, whom I've guided for 15 or 20 years, just get to the point where they couldn't climb anymore. Sure, as we age we'll all lose strength, flexibility, and balance, but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy climbing even more than when we were younger. The way I look at it, every day out climbing is a gift, and I look at each climb as an opportunity to do the best I can, with the best technique I can muster, no matter what else is going on. And I still love it, even after 45 years of climbing.

Here's a little excerpt from a new book I'm working on that my coauthor John Long wrote. It's part of a chapter on Leave No Trace ethics, but I think apropos to this thread too:

"The way old climbers tell it, their fondest memories are rarely about conquests; rather, they're about their relationships with partners and the vertical world. When we go there ourselves, a charged silence reaches back to those who worked out a way before us on the rock. Decades later, at the juncture of back then and not yet, we rope up for a route and climb right now- riding old routes into the future. Preserving that future for the climber yet born is every era's mandate in the adventure of ascent."

Bob Gaineswrote:

"Everything I've got now, is a gift to savor."

Truer words have not been spoken.  

The whole no women climbing thing, horsepucky.  I was raised by a strong woman who believed women can do most everything a man can do with a few biological exceptions. Reproduction being a thing, but science has a work around for some of that.  I married a strong woman who's sense of adventure matches mine.  She doesn't have the muscle mass that I do, but her spirit is ever as adventuress, actually more so. . I have seen many women climbers.  Ok, society being what it is, there are not as many women climbers as men climbers, big deal.  I don't really care. You climb, you don't climb.  Gender has nothing to do with it. 

I am having some progress with the physical therapy.  After the first visit I could not climb, way too much pain in the shoulders.  I have been pretty good about doing the exercises.  Low and behold there is improvement.  More work will equal more strength, working on it.  I am having fun with the young pt guy. First off, I am not severely injured, so in discussing my goals as related to climbing he is intrigued. They have a pull up rack, I told him my goal was to do one overhand pull up, it may never happen, but it's a goal.  So working the rack I demonstrated an inverted climbing position.  Interestingly enough he knows how the body works, what goes wrong, and how to fix it.  While I scared the crap out of him over head hanging he understood the dynamics of how I made that work and what it will take to make me stronger.  Took him a few moments to adjust from senior citizen mode to eco-tourist mode.  But he did.  Soo, daily shoulder band exercises, like my cholesterol and hypertension medicine; the rest of my life, get over it, get er done. Now for specific exercises to meet my goal.  Work in progress.  

Then my son calls, bought a house, needs help.  Family, what are your gonna do, 4 days of home improvement, good news my shoulders have improved enough I had no issue doing the overhead stuff, tongue in groove ceiling is pretty shoulder intensive.  Had more trouble with my back, but that's because of the huge shift in type of activity. 

I like seeing folks that are getting vaccinated.  I don't meet the 70 year old category here, so that leaves me in the resident category. Wait, I am not a resident here. So I am SOL when it comes to a vaccination.  We don't fit a category, so it will probably be some time before we can get vaccinated.  2022 is just around the corner, so maybe then.  

I am just happy to be here. 

Bob, Excellent!

No, Jim Desert. I'm from Ca., that's what we do! Although you are a little right, I was trained from about twelve to road race. My first race bike was a Gilera 100cc road racer. By sixteen Motocross was it. & then from nineteen till I quit at twenty-six. desert. I've been ten feet from Joel Robert without his shirt on. 

I worked with "Axe" C.R. AXTELL at times during that phase of my life. He is one of the reasons I see things differently than most.

Dallas Rwrote:

Low and behold there is improvement.  ...They have a pull up rack, I told him my goal was to do one overhand pull up, it may never happen, but it's a goal.  So working the rack I demonstrated an inverted climbing position.

Yo Dallas! Glad to hear things are improving.

I thought I was the last person on earth who can't do a pull up. Can you do an underhand pull up? And how are you training for the overhand? I've started doing hangboard training a few times per week, since climbing is out for now. I'm using a counterweight - minus 25% of my bodyweight. Just trying to develop finger strength without doing damage.

Old lady Hwrote:

I am now on "affordable care", for the 2+ years ahead of Medicare. I now pay $100+ more per month then I did with COBRA (continuing my Boise City insurance).  I went from $250 deductible....to $6000. It will be interesting to see what it does and doesn't cover. 

Just wanted to add a different point of view here. I'm very surprised that your COBRA was less expensive than what you get on the marketplace. I went on COBRA a couple of times in my life. My employers always covered a really big chunk of the insurance (over 50%). So both times, when I did get onto COBRA - at a point when I'd lost employment and totally lost my income source - I was very alarmed at the monthly premiums. I'd be paying more than twice my usual premiums for insurance with just a small chunk of weekly unemployment income. My expenses were mostly being paid from savings at those times.

The last time I was offered COBRA, it would have been $600/month. I declined. I went onto private insurance and began paying $500/month (out of my savings), and yes, the deductible was $5000/year. This was prior to the ACA. I was just happy to get insurance of some kind. I avoid going to the doctor except in extreme circumstances. One year I spent about $1500 on medical expenses, but for the rest it was just paying premiums.

I'm now on ACA through the marketplace. The plan has a $6K/year deductible. But I only pay about $100/month because I'm subsidized. This is a huge savings for me compared to pre-ACA. It's also a huge relief to feel that pre-existing conditions are not a consideration. I'd rather the US have a single payer option like European countries, but I think the ACA was a huge step in the right direction.

So yeah I'm very surprised to hear how much more your marketplace costs are. Are things so different from state to state? I do have a relatively low income, which probably helps (I would rather be making more...), but I didn't think you were making much either. Not trying to pry, just suggesting that maybe you're paying for something you shouldn't be.

Idaho Bobwrote:

My limitation is finding partners who want to travel and climb as much as I do and that are willing to work on projects.

There should be a global climbing/traveling club. I know MP has the partner finder, but it really doesn't work the way I want it. If you're ever in the NH area, give a shout.

My main limitation now (aside from COVID) is finding the funds for climbing trips. And finding partners that I trust so I can climb as much as I want to. And not getting injured. Is all that too much to ask?

Mike Heilmanwrote: You must have heard this before: There are old climbers and there are bold climbers, but old, bold climbers are rare!

That’s a false statement, complete rubbish.