New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #14

Carl Schneiderwrote:

I agree, sort of. Sometimes I'll basically do a chin up on a route or boulder problem. In fact, there's a route we put up here my mate named 'The Carleque Way'. There was really no way to get through it without basically doing a chin up half way through. However, if I find myself doing things like chinups through a route or boulder problem I know I'm actually climbing badly; I do count it as bad form...

Yeah, that's my point. ONE chin up, sure. One powerful move. But rock climbing is grace, not brute strength. Even hard, overhanging sport climbing turns out to be more grace than strength when you get down to it. Back when I had the luxury of going to the gym Jason Momoa was a regular there. Jason is actually a really good climber and very dedicated to it. But he's just huge and all that muscle works like an anchor above a certain grade and on long overhanging stuff. There's a reason the best climbers are skinny like Honnold or Ondra.

Bouldering inside at The Club (The Adelaide Bouldering Club) today. Got this problem a few times before and on my second go two days ago but CAN'T get the fucking thing today! 

However I was a bit warm after an hour long motorcycle ride in 38 degree heat and I'd slept for 14 hours so was a bit fuzzy... 

Also, by way of further explaining my ineptitude, I have a chest pain thingy, a slightly sore left toe, a tight shoulder, an inflamed left little finger, an unreasonably large gathering of fat in my midsection (probably caused by beer drinking on hot evenings in the sun with music), fungally feet and I'm balding... 

https://youtu.be/kqXUbsEp6EQ

Andrew Ricewrote:

Yeah, that's my point. ONE chin up, sure. One powerful move. But rock climbing is grace, not brute strength. Even hard, overhanging sport climbing turns out to be more grace than strength when you get down to it. Back when I had the luxury of going to the gym Jason Momoa was a regular there. Jason is actually a really good climber and very dedicated to it. But he's just huge and all that muscle works like an anchor above a certain grade and on long overhanging stuff. There's a reason the best climbers are skinny like Honnold or Ondra.

Senor. Always teasing the animals.    

I wanted to thank you for suggesting corporate housing, which I had forgotten was a thing.  I'm kinda bummed, because the cheapest stay I could find so far is $3600 for a month, and that ain't gonna happen.  We're going to wind up in an Extended Stay place... not much less money.  

Life has been a little overwhelming lately, so I haven't followed through on all the options I wanted to look at.  I'm going in circles because nothing seems to fit for the long-range desire to be mobile and be able to travel north when I need to:  buying an RV, camper, finding AirB&B, time share, renting an RV up there... this morning I thought about finding a cheap apartment somewhere in the foothills and maybe finding a partner who would  go in halves.  I just need a place to land when I go visit my family, etc.  

This morning I'm suddenly realizing that this trip I will probably need to also have a wheel chair ready for Tony, if we are going to be walking from the car into a lobby, and some distance to a room.  Still amazes me that they send someone home 2 hours after a major surgery.  Last time I was just totally freaked out walking Tony from the car to the house... if he had fallen, how would I have gotten him up?  All this effort for Brad Pitt?  Or Jason?  Funny thing is, he doesn't remember any of it.  He thought it all went FINE.  I remember how much it did not go fine.    

Lori Milaswrote:

When my small business was in full swing I interviewed people who I knew were living out of their cars, who had to borrow a shower and clothes to try to look presentable for the job. I had an employee who I loved who, even with paid for health and dental insurance, couldn’t afford to have a decayed tooth pulled (let alone fancy root canal). She sat at her desk daily in tears from the pain but would not let me pay for the extraction.

In my prior life, I was running a modest factory.  At least half of the workers were women and the absenteeism rate was far too high.  After talking to a lot of them I found out that an underlying reason was sickness, both the employee and children.  The solution was to start a good insurance program for them so that they got preventive care and could addressed acute problems quickly without cost obstacles.  Absenteeism went way down, productivity way up.  Overall cost for the operation way down.  So much for the bs that companies can't afford good health care for their employees.  Just stupid managers.   

Similar situation to those opposed to higher minimum wage, who don't understand the economics of demand.  I'm so tired of hearing coffee shop owners complain about paying their employees a living wage, not thinking about the macro-economic result.

Idaho Bob, as an X-business own I 99.99% agree with you.

Senor Arroz, all sport are finesse (Technique) the more brutal the sport the more Technique it takes. Climbing is all about power. You are underestimating women! Climbing is about your legs!

Lori, my best wish to you.

Andrew Ricewrote:

Yeah, that's my point. ONE chin up, sure. One powerful move. But rock climbing is grace, not brute strength. Even hard, overhanging sport climbing turns out to be more grace than strength when you get down to it. Back when I had the luxury of going to the gym Jason Momoa was a regular there. Jason is actually a really good climber and very dedicated to it. But he's just huge and all that muscle works like an anchor above a certain grade and on long overhanging stuff. There's a reason the best climbers are skinny like Honnold or Ondra.

I don’t disagree, but I’ll take your Mamoa, and raise you a John Dunne. Shaped like a potato on toothpicks, over 200 lbs, and sending 14+ in the 90s. 

Btw, my wife climbed with Mamoa at Mokuleia when he was a teen and not famous. 

Idaho Bobwrote:

In my prior life, I was running a modest factory.  At least half of the workers were women and the absenteeism rate was far too high.  After talking to a lot of them I found out that an underlying reason was sickness, both the employee and children.  The solution was to start a good insurance program for them so that they got preventive care and could addressed acute problems quickly without cost obstacles.  Absenteeism went way down, productivity way up.  Overall cost for the operation way down.  So much for the bs that companies can't afford good health care for their employees.  Just stupid managers.   

Similar situation to those opposed to higher minimum wage, who don't understand the economics of demand.  I'm so tired of hearing coffee shop owners complain about paying their employees a living wage, not thinking about the macro-economic result.

I've never owned a business, but I 100% agree with you. Since last March, we've been doing a lot of take-out and delivery from local restaurants (good for us, good for them) and I notice that they're adding tips to the bill as a matter of course. It's an improvement and perhaps a first step toward incorporating the tip into the cost of the meal and raising wages for servers and kitchen workers. 

Not to embarrass Bob Gaines but I had never seen Bob in short sleeves before, and so I never noticed his forearms built like tree trunks.  Bob and John Long have been climbing buddies, and I did notice the limbs on John in some of his posts.  These are muscular, strong dudes. And yet watching Bob climb it’s all precision, “quiet feet” and technique... and I’m sure some part chill attitude.  

Now I know not to be fooled by the ease with which Bob (or Chris or Nelson) leads a route. Watching I always think “that looks easy enough!” and then find myself quivering and panting/struggling on the same route.  They have core stability, speed, attitude and technique.  

That speed thing counts, I’m coming to see. They move through difficult spots ASAP.  I will meditate and decipher options until I drop. While I’m trying to decide IF I can do that high-step, they’ve already done it.

It’s gotta be both/and—strength and technique.  

Technique allows you to use the strength you have to your best advantage. 

I call the meditate & decipher time making Home. The longer you climb you will do less of that.

The reason some athletes (people) do better when they are hurt or have a bad start to the day is when things, go wrong the mind focuses on what is at hand, what you have to & have trained to do & lets go of what it doesn't need right now.

Best of luck with your travels & his recovery.

Agree that climbing is more about technique than brute strength, but I submit that almost all advanced (or above) climbers have a high strength to weight ratio in three areas:  pull up, grip and finger lock off.  For most of us, it may be easier to loose weight than to hit the gym a few times a week.  Now, how to deal with beer and chocolate?

Haha, strong people have a way of going on about it all being a matter of technique. It may be true that folks sometimes view a failure as being due to insufficient strength, when what is really called for is better technique. It is true that technique enables you to meter out your strength, but it is just as true that strength allows you to deploy technique; it's a case of "the rich getting richer."  

I think there is also a tendency to speak of "strength" in a generic way that ultimately focuses on the wrong thing.  For example, I climb with people who are weaker than I am when it comes to things like pull-up strength, but they can hang on longer than me and so are  better climbers.  In some cases, it may be that they are technically superior, but in a lot of cases they are just stronger at what matters.  Of course technique is critical and strength by itself will barely get you up the easiest routes. On the other hand, strength in its various forms is an essential component of almost all climbing above mid-fifth class.  No one is getting up vertical or overhanging routes without lots of specialized strength.  

There's a whole strength-building industry in climbing for a reason, and the dissemination of training knowledge and tools has made an immense contribution to the ability levels of modern climbers.  So as primary as technique is, getting stronger on sport-specific ways is going to have a major influence on how far you go in terms difficulty, and this may be especially true for older climbers, who are fighting age-related tendencies to decline in strength as they attempt to progress.

rgoldwrote:

So as primary as technique is, getting stronger on sport-specific ways is going to have a major influence on how far you go in terms difficulty, and this may be especially true for older climbers, who are fighting age-related tendencies to decline in strength as they attempt to progress.

Everything you say is in your post is true, but I have a specific question about the above.

I intend, if I am able, to climb into my seventies. I know that a strength decline is inevitable. But you make no mention of declines in technique.  I hesitate to hope that technique might be something closer to immutable (though as you say, only able to be deployed with the strength required).  Can you speak at all to what you have experienced, and the experience of your peers, in terms of how well your mind-body connection has held up, in terms of your ability to solve technically complex climbing sequences, when you know you have the physical strengths?  I know that my balance and agility, even at 50, is not what it was at 30.  Certainly the losses are small enough that they are more than made up for by the many other tricks I have picked up through the years. But I imagine there must be a point of diminishing returns?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

GO

rgoldwrote:

Haha, strong people have a way of going on about it all being a matter of technique. It may be true that folks sometimes view a failure as being due to insufficient strength, when what is really called for is better technique. It is true that technique enables you to meter out your strength, but it is just as true that strength allows you to deploy technique; it's a case of "the rich getting richer."  

I think there is also a tendency to speak of "strength" in a generic way that ultimately focuses on the wrong thing.  For example, I climb with people who are weaker than I am when it comes to things like pull-up strength, but they can hang on longer than me and so are  better climbers.  In some cases, it may be that they are technically superior, but in a lot of cases they are just stronger at what matters.  Of course technique is critical and strength by itself will barely get you up the easiest routes. On the other hand, strength in its various forms is an essential component of almost all climbing above mid-fifth class.  No one is getting up vertical or overhanging routes without lots of specialized strength.  

There's a whole strength-building industry in climbing for a reason, and the dissemination of training knowledge and tools has made an immense contribution to the ability levels of modern climbers.  So as primary as technique is, getting stronger on sport-specific ways is going to have a major influence on how far you go in terms difficulty, and this may be especially true for older climbers, who are fighting age-related tendencies to decline in strength as they attempt to progress.

All so true, strength in different areas... 

GabeOwrote:

Everything you say is in your post is true, but I have a specific question about the above.

I intend, if I am able, to climb into my seventies. I know that a strength decline is inevitable. But you make no mention of declines in technique.  I hesitate to hope that technique might be something closer to immutable (though as you say, only able to be deployed with the strength required).  Can you speak at all to what you have experienced, and the experience of your peers, in terms of how well your mind-body connection has held up, in terms of your ability to solve technically complex climbing sequences, when you know you have the physical strengths?  I know that my balance and agility, even at 50, is not what it was at 30.  Certainly the losses are small enough that they are more than made up for by the many other tricks I have picked up through the years. But I imagine there must be a point of diminishing returns?

Thanks in advance for any insight.

GO

I started climbing at 65.  Now 77.  My grade level is advancing a little each year (well, until the year of the COVID!).  I have a daily stretching routine developed with my PT, along with the recommendations in Eric Horst's book "Training for Climbing".  This routine includes balance and rotator cuff exercises.  When the weight gym is open I go 3 days a week for different workouts: one focused on strength (8 sets, 4 reps,  90% 1rpm ,one minute interval), one on endurance (3 sets, 15 reps  70%1rpm 3 minutes between sets), the other on strength endurance (3 sets, 10 reps, 80% 1 rpm).  Aside from leg presses all the exercises are upper body.  The exercises are based on Horst's recommendations plus weight training info on the web.  Two hangboard sessions 2 weeks/month following the Metolius plan.  

For technique my improvement is due in large part to climbing with partners who can provide coaching on footwork and have the patience to belay while I work on pushing my level and work on complex sequences.  

My primary weakness is very tight hips and hamstrings from years of skiing, biking and running.  Improvement here is very slow.

My limitation is finding partners who want to travel and climb as much as I do and that are willing to work on projects.

rgold, I politely disagree with you. I think the difference between people that understand how important technique is & those that do not is the difference between amateurs & professionals. I have always performed against men that were much stronger than me. 

I don't perform nor have I ever wanted to be competitive in climbing or mountaineering. I do them for the love. 

I grew up with two loves, the mountains & racing. I chose to race Motorcycles for a living & I go to the mountains for my head. 

To do any physical sport at a professional level it is ALL about technique! How & where you build strength is more important than building strength.

I'll take a weakling that knows how to use their body over a strong guy every day. 

It's hard to train a person that is strong or has talent. 

Life is counterintuitive. 

You must have heard this before: There are old climbers and there are bold climbers, but old, bold climbers are rare!

Mark Frumkinwrote:

 You are underestimating women! 

I'm underestimating women by pointing out that they are, on the whole, better climbers than me? Sure. 

I’ve been giving some real thought to this the last couple days. Rgold’s post kind of cinched it for me. Much as I like the idea of floating up a route like a ballerina (because of incredible technique and flexibility) with no further strength training I believe that’s wishful thinking. I like the phrasing that it takes a certain amount of specific strength to execute technique.  The last few times I’ve been out I simply wasn’t strong enough to do what I wanted to do and definitely knew how to do on those routes. I don’t know that pull up’s are the problem. 

I’m more convinced than ever that we’re just different, men and women. The books I have on climbing- specific fitness and training are tailored to men.  You all likely start with more brawn than I will acquire in a lifetime.  But I’ll bet I have strengths I don’t even know about. 

This is kind of a new dawning for me—with such gratitude. I have loved climbing with men and will continue to do so, if they’ll have me. But I’m going to seek out some women climbers who can spend a little time observing and coaching me—my body and movements specifically. I don’t know why I didn’t think of this before!    I have 3 weeks of downtime to think this all through and a gym on site to work in.  Esther at Grassroots Therapy is a female climbing coach who coaches some great female athletes. 

As I age my strength diminishes, my climbing ability remains constant,I frequently surprise myself by finding “ easier “ solutions to the difficulties. I also frequently wonder what I was , and am capable of, just another reason why I love this game we play.