New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #14

Lori Milaswrote:

When I moved here I promised myself I would find a way to make staying in Sacramento easy so I could visit and see my family and business.  So far, I haven't figured it out.  AirB&Bs are extremely expensive, and not plentiful.  That leaves hotels. (are they safe with COVID? thinking about circulating shared air... ).  What about a big van. RV. Camper?  Time share?  

Sacramento must have lots of long-term corporate housing designed to serve the constant ebb and flow of State government related businesses. I'm guess you could line up a nice unit quite cheaply during this COVID time. Best of luck to Tony. I hope this one goes easier than the last. I look forward to confusing him with Brad Pitt soon. 

Lori Milaswrote:

Maybe if you're really into the sport of climbing, the grades, the styles... you go where it's pretty set up to get on it without muss and fuss.  When I decided to do 'one year of climbing' here... in part I just wanted to blend in with the desert and trot along with the coyotes, learn north from south (better but still not perfect). Watch the seasons change. Learn to identify the herbs and vegetation. See when the chuckwallas come out.  And climb--pretty much in that order. 

Ladies?

I'm not a lady, but the absolute most go-for-broke person I know - a person I always had the biggest adventures with, and the only person I ever got unintentionally benighted with, was a woman.  So the idea that women are less into adventure and more into going where "it's pretty set up to get on it without muss and fuss" is laughable to me.

GO

Lori Milaswrote:

This question isn't that important.  I wasn't implying anything...certainly not that women are scared or frightened. 

So perhaps you can explain better what you meant by this?

I commented on the sparse number of women I see in Joshua Tree.  Yesterday I got a more accurate estimate that 10% of climbers here are women and that feels about right.  

It doesn't bother me, I don't mind... I'm not complaining.  I'm just wondering why, what's different about J Tree, or is it perhaps trad climbing?  

I'd like to climb with other women, and there are plenty of ways to find them.  It does just seem like outdoor climbing is pretty exclusive to begin with, because it is HARD.  And it's rugged.  And it cannot be learned overnight.  I do know of 3 women who used to climb here, and just no longer do.  

Cheers,

GO

GabeO wrote:

My wife and I estimate in the 30-40% range. Then again, if Lori is making the claim that trad climbing is too scary for many girls, one must admit that you don't get much closer to a gym's ease in a trad venue than climbing at the Gunks.

GO

rgoldwrote:

Over the years, I've continually heard comments about what women can't or will never do.  Back in the 70's in Yosemite, slab climbing was "girl climbing" and "women will never do hard offwidth."  Now one of the best offwidth climbers in the world is a woman.  I head that women would never climb a big wall without a male partner.  That one barely lasted a year or two.  

It may be that trad climbing is indeed too scary for some of the people introduced to and raised on the safer genres that now exist.  But I don't see women as over-represented in that demographic.

Sorry, I can't figure out how to do nested quotes on MP.

I just want to make it clear that (I think) this is Lori's claim, not mine.  Then again, perhaps I'm misunderstanding her.  I've invited her to clarify.

GO

Gabe, this has come up before.

I think it's partly just catching up. This was a mostly men thing, before, but that's changing. It takes time.

It takes a certain amount of pushiness to climb at all. It isn't easy being a new climber. And, yes, there's the seriousness of it. But I don't think it's that type of fear. Rather, the fear of being perceived as....I dunno. Not a typical female? Willing to show up the guys? 

There's an interesting discussion awhile back, in the ice climbing forum. Basically, why do so few women lead ice? All the same reasons as rock, but amplified.

Bouldering, less women makes sense, because that's often power. It's more akin to the higher climbing grades. It isn't that women can't, it's just more work to get there, sometimes, and honestly, easy bouldering may not be as much fun as easy roped stuff.

I do all three, routes, problems and ice. I just may be the only one on our over fifty thread who does?

Oh. And neener, neener. :-)

Women climb ice :) 

Although I was informed after last sundays debacle that ice climbing is only on the menu if it's 20F and sunny. 

GabeOwrote:

So perhaps you can explain better what you meant by this?

Cheers,

GO

Well, it’s just gotten weird and I’m a little confused. I was so careful in my original post, chose my words carefully and yet I’m still being asked to clarify.

I had been noticing that I rarely saw women when I’m out climbing and wondered why that is. That’s it. I wasn’t saying women are scared or incapable of climbing  or anything else.  I just wondered why there are so few women climbers here in Joshua Tree.

The conversation segued to challenging my observation, and stating that there are many female climbers here—and that other venues have much larger ratios women to men.  just reported on what I observed but other climbers here observe differently—I could absolutely be wrong!

It’s not a subject that means enough to me to argue about.  

Today I was climbing in Indian Cove and took an informal head count.  There were 25 male climbers and 2 women (me and one other).  Maybe I just hit the days when women stay home!  REALLY don’t care. Just curious.   Certainly losing no sleep over it. 

Lori Milaswrote:

When I moved here I promised myself I would find a way to make staying in Sacramento easy so I could visit and see my family and business.  So far, I haven't figured it out.  AirB&Bs are extremely expensive, and not plentiful.  That leaves hotels. (are they safe with COVID? thinking about circulating shared air... ).  What about a big van. RV. Camper?  Time share?  

In the past few months I've twice stayed at "extended stay" hotels.  The kind with equipped kitchens, small table, TV area.  Not cheap, but I think as safe as possible in these times if you go with a national chain.  I chose these so I can be self contained, cook all my meals, etc.  No need to use common areas.

Old lady Hwrote:

Gabe, this has come up before.

I think it's partly just catching up. This was a mostly men thing, before, but that's changing. It takes time.

It takes a certain amount of pushiness to climb at all. It isn't easy being a new climber. And, yes, there's the seriousness of it. But I don't think it's that type of fear. Rather, the fear of being perceived as....I dunno. Not a typical female? Willing to show up the guys? 

There's an interesting discussion awhile back, in the ice climbing forum. Basically, why do so few women lead ice? All the same reasons as rock, but amplified.

Bouldering, less women makes sense, because that's often power. It's more akin to the higher climbing grades. It isn't that women can't, it's just more work to get there, sometimes, and honestly, easy bouldering may not be as much fun as easy roped stuff.

I do all three, routes, problems and ice. I just may be the only one on our over fifty thread who does?

Oh. And neener, neener. :-)

In my experience and in my opinion that's not quite true (that it takes more work). It's different work.  While I agree (and I've talked about it just recently) bouldering often (not always) requires powerful moves, that's a generalisation. I know many many women boulderers and I love bouldering with them as they teach me how to use other techniques other than relying on power. Now that I'm old and have snapped both biceps tendons (one in each arm) I can't reply on power that i once had. Also, with bouldering grades (similar to climbing grades) going all the way from V0 to V16 and all those boulder problems (real and artificial) there's plenty of styles and types to suit everyone, of all genders and capabilities. I often hear a generalisation that old people can't boulder. Well, if you saw me you might agree, I can only boulder up to V4, but I try. 

Unfortunately, generalisations often start to creep toward 'isms' (as in sexism, racism,etc). 

Carl Schneiderwrote:

In my experience and in my opinion that's not quite true (that it takes more work). It's different work.  While I agree (and I've talked about it just recently) bouldering often (not always) requires powerful moves, that's a generalisation. I know many many women boulderers and I love bouldering with them as they teach me how to use other techniques other than relying on power. Now that I'm old and have snapped both biceps tendons (one in each arm) I can't reply on power that i once had. Also, with bouldering grades (similar to climbing grades) going all the way from V0 to V16 and all those boulder problems (real and artificial) there's plenty of styles and types to suit everyone, of all genders and capabilities. I often hear a generalisation that old people can't boulder. Well, if you saw me you might agree, I can only boulder up to V4, but I try. 

Unfortunately, generalisations often start to creep toward 'isms' (as in sexism, racism,etc). 

And ageism.  

It’s so hard to leave ego behind in climbing. It has a way of exposing everything you spend a lifetime hiding.  Today I bumped into my little buddy Jeremy. He saw me before I saw him and called me out. we had a great reunion. But he’s 22 or so, climbing 5.13’s, full of energy with all of life before him.  And suddenly I felt so old, clumsy and ridiculous out there on my little route.  I had just given up on a 5.10 route... frustrated that after all this time I couldn’t find the strength to get up it. That’s all 100% my crap. Can’t climb with that much ego in the way.

But I have been feeling empowered lately to use my body my way... to go with a hunch if it feels right even if it’s not how the guys do it. Although my teachers and partners have all been men I am learning that my balance and strength may be different.  I think I may discover great new strength in climbing as I tune in a little closer to my hunches.

EDIT: Oh god I reread that and thought I had posted “And orgasm.  “. Which, btw, wouldn’t have been so bad. We old folks aren’t supposed to have those, either. 

Lori Milaswrote:

EDIT: Oh god I reread that and thought I had posted “And orgasm.  “. Which, btw, wouldn’t have been so bad. We old folks aren’t supposed to have those, either. 

I heard years ago that women, when they get older, get all 'sexual' again (it doesn't leave men, we're like that all the time). I'm still waiting for my wife to hit that time...

BTW I think we all feel old, clumsy and ridiculous from time to time, but there you are with the pictures and the stories to prove you're still doing it, and Jeremy wouldn't be calling out 'hi' to you if he thought you were a fool. As older climbers, i think sometimes we are not aware of the respect we get from younger people. Goodness, at 20 if i saw someone 58 doing what I do now (not that I'm any good in the scheme of things by any means) I reckon I'd have been in awe. One guy i really respect is Arnold (yes, THAT Arnold). What is he, 73 or something??

Russ Walling wrote:

To add to Carls dealio above....

I was young and in the Valley for maybe the first summer of many I was entrenched there.  There was a dude in the Camp 4 lot who was talking to a group of us all while doing curls or something with dumbells while he talked... dude was an anatomy lesson!  And at the time I wondered how could this old fuck look so strong and climb so hard at his age... In fact, I wondered how he was even still alive.  Dude was 40.

Next fossil was really fucking old... it was truly amazing he was still alive. I gazed upon him in awe, and not just because of the revealing Dolphin shorts. I guess he ran the Falls Trail or Mist Trail every day. Like every day to the top. Every single day... with some sort if marathon distance mixed in on the weekends. He was 50!

It’s funny how youth looks at age.  I certainly had no idea back then what old really was.

Ha ha. Its so funny what we considered old, and now we say "I'm not old! (at 58) 80 is old". 

I distinctly remember calculating how old I'd be in the year two thousand and thinking it was WAYYYYYY in the future (I was maybe 19). Now death seems to be just around the corner sometimes... 

You guys wouldn't know this band, but this conversation reminds me of this song... 

https://youtu.be/4YobMU7NXDI

Carl Schneiderwrote:

Ha ha. Its so funny what we considered old, and now we say "I'm not old! (at 58) 80 is old". 

I distinctly remember calculating how old I'd be in the year two thousand and thinking it was WAYYYYYY in the future (I was maybe 19). Now death seems to be just around the corner sometimes... 

You guys wouldn't know this band, but this conversation reminds me of this song... 

https://youtu.be/4YobMU7NXDI

I am starting to think there are 2 Carl's.  The literate, compassionate, thinker/athlete... and the potty-mouth beer drinking climber.  I have often wondered if you have a stand-in for when you're too drunk to post.      At any rate, I like them both.  Maybe that's more of your 'Carl-ness'.  

This morning I was thinking about how great it was to see Jeremy, and how healthy and strong and tan he looks--and I desperately wish that for every kid.  Has anyone noticed that when people are outdoors and working their sport, they laugh A LOT?  And then thinking about my neighbor kid who is languishing still... Jeremy suggested getting him over to Gunsmoke and let him mingle.  It's hard to go about my day when I know this 14 year old stays in his room all day in front of his computer, wears his pajamas at 4 in the afternoon when I do see him.  We have to get past COVID.  

While browsing through pictures of the routes I climbed yesterday, who's picture should I see but our very own Brandt.  I guess Brandt is and has been the man about town.  (Brandt Allen photo by Blitzo) We Dive At Dawn.  

That was back when I could climb 5.7.

And back when Blitzo was around! Never met him, but he sure gave MP a heckuva lot of great pics. That Goldsmith guy, too!

In the annoyances and indignities department....

I've got hives. No idea why. I just hope they're the go away fast type.

Carl can do some swearing for me. 

And hey, Carl? I do think bouldering outside leans on strength more. Plus, remember, the grading starts out harder. Anything easier would be, well, it would be scrambling. There may be V easy problems out there that are fun, but there's a lot more fun 5 stuff before you hit V0.

One super simple hurdle for females in the great outdoors in general, is peeing. That's always a consideration, until you work out whatever you're comfortable with. I will say, that was the thing that nagged me a fair bit when I was first gearing up for ice climbing. All those layers. And a harness. And gloves. And cold. White snow.....

I got over it. :-P

Best, Helen

Old lady Hwrote:

And back when Blitzo was around! Never met him, but he sure gave MP a heckuva lot of great pics. That Goldsmith guy, too!

In the annoyances and indignities department....

I've got hives. No idea why. I just hope they're the go away fast type.

Carl can do some swearing for me. 

And hey, Carl? I do think bouldering outside leans on strength more. Plus, remember, the grading starts out harder. Anything easier would be, well, it would be scrambling. There may be V easy problems out there that are fun, but there's a lot more fun 5 stuff before you hit V0.

One super simple hurdle for females in the great outdoors in general, is peeing. That's always a consideration, until you work out whatever you're comfortable with. I will say, that was the thing that nagged me a fair bit when I was first gearing up for ice climbing. All those layers. And a harness. And gloves. And cold. White snow.....

I got over it. :-P

Best, Helen

Hope those hives go away fast, Helen!!  

Re. peeing... I almost have a harder time peeing indoors now. One gets used to finding a rock, squatting... Tony can't bear the thought, he's an indoor city kind of guy. Just doesn't want to know.   

Lately I've been happy if I learn one tiny (or big) thing on an outing.  Yesterday, it was more about that 'body English'... which we need so much since brut strength is on the wane.  I was attempting to step onto a route where the first move was a 4+ foot highstep.  Facing the crack, I just couldn't make it work.  It never occurred to me to put my left hip on the wall.  I floundered quite awhile, and almost gave up, when I was given that elegant solution.  It felt pretty magical... totally unexpected that that little torque would make the whole move easy.  

There is SO fucking much to learn.  

--------------

I've debated leaving this here.  I don't want to be irresponsible.  I'm not recommending it.  But I am going to share: 

I've had 4 skin cancers removed in the last few years, 2 by Moh's.  A new one showed up on the end of my nose in November, and it was big... and very unsightly.  Being away from my Kaiser docs, and not wanting to face probable excision and then involved plastic surgery (which could be very disfiguring) I decided to try a protocol that I had read about, called Curaderm.  I researched it, along with the PubMed studies, NIH study, and talked to acquaintances who had used it with success.  I also wrote to my Kaiser doc about this.  Basically, you apply this ointment 2-10 times a day to the lesion, cover it with tape, and it's specific anti-cancer ingredients attack only the cancer cells.  (will not be effective on melanoma)  

It's been very anxiety-producing because at first the lesion gets much larger, more painful and messy.  I had dreams of losing my nose.  But I decided to stick with the entire 8-12 week protocol.  I did see a Dermatologist who thought it was going ok.  Today I sent before, during and after pictures to my Sacramento Kaiser dermatologist:  

"Hi Lori,
This is very interesting! I had to look into Curaderm as it's not an approved product in the US. But it looks like there is some promising data on its use for non-melanoma skin cancers. I would recommend that you continue the full 12 weeks to ensure complete treatment and bring you in after that for an evaluation. Generally speaking, most topical treatments are not as effective on the nose as they would be on the back or arm for example, so I do think we will need to watch the site for some time at the very least."  

My nose looks normal today, for all intents and purposes this cancer is healed.  No scars. No surgery.    

I offer this only as something to look into, for those of us out in the sun, prone to skin cancers.  If another one would pop up on an arm or leg, I'd probably just have it burned off.  On my face, I'd do this again.  
  

Old lady Hwrote:

And hey, Carl? I do think bouldering outside leans on strength more. Plus, remember, the grading starts out harder. Anything easier would be, well, it would be scrambling. There may be V easy problems out there that are fun, but there's a lot more fun 5 stuff before you hit V0.

My experience of bouldering is the exact opposite. I'm much stronger than my daughter or, for that matter, most women I know. But they tend to float up things that I have zero chance of muscling my way through. I feel like raw strength has very little use in climbing to be honest. People think we're doing pullups all day when, really, it's just vertical ballet. 

Lori, isn't it great to have doctors amenable to you researching and trying things? That isn't a given. Nor is the level of care you have access to.

Not aimed at you at all, you are how it should be. But? Coming from my background, it is striking, the difference between the haves and have nots, in the U.S.

I am now on "affordable care", for the 2+ years ahead of Medicare. I now pay $100+ more per month then I did with COBRA (continuing my Boise City insurance).  I went from $250 deductible....to $6000. It will be interesting to see what it does and doesn't cover.

So? Hives isn't on the list of symptoms here, for testing. It is on the list online, as one to watch for in otherwise asymptomatic carriers. Will my insurance cover a covid test? Maybe.... maybe not. I have financial resources, but do I want to pony up that money? Plus the care visit I'd also get charged? 

When I got the insurance? Yes, I checked, yes my primary care physician is on the list. Good to go, right?

Wrong.

New insurance. They aren't accepting new patients. 

That means, until I get it sorted with some more long stretches on hold trying to talk to someone? I am in an out of network provider. 

How in hell are just regular folks, without resources, supposed to make anything work??

Okay, dismounting the righteous indignation soapbox digression now. 

Carry on with your regular programming, lol!

Helen 

Old lady Hwrote:

Lori, isn't it great to have doctors amenable to you researching and trying things? That isn't a given. Nor is the level of care you have access to.

Not aimed at you at all, you are how it should be. But? Coming from my background, it is striking, the difference between the haves and have nots, in the U.S.

I am now on "affordable care", for the 2+ years ahead of Medicare. I now pay $100+ more per month then I did with COBRA (continuing my Boise City insurance).  I went from $250 deductible....to $6000. It will be interesting to see what it does and doesn't cover.

So? Hives isn't on the list of symptoms here, for testing. It is on the list online, as one to watch for in otherwise asymptomatic carriers. Will my insurance cover a covid test? Maybe.... maybe not. I have financial resources, but do I want to pony up that money? Plus the care visit I'd also get charged? 

When I got the insurance? Yes, I checked, yes my primary care physician is on the list. Good to go, right?

Wrong.

New insurance. They aren't accepting new patients. 

That means, until I get it sorted with some more long stretches on hold trying to talk to someone? I am in an out of network provider. 

How in hell are just regular folks, without resources, supposed to make anything work??

Okay, dismounting the righteous indignation soapbox digression now. 

Carry on with your regular programming, lol!

Helen 

 

Helen, not a day or hour goes by that I am not aware of the luck and blessings of having some means, and bless you for bringing it up. That was actually my first thought when I received that note from my doctor: this is because I have decent insurance, a doctor I could choose, and even the luxury of purchasing and trying out this odd goop for my nose. How many people  would have the time, or access?

When my small business was in full swing I interviewed people who I knew were living out of their cars, who had to borrow a shower and clothes to try to look presentable for the job. I had an employee who I loved who, even with paid for health and dental insurance, couldn’t afford to have a decayed tooth pulled (let alone fancy root canal). She sat at her desk daily in tears from the pain but would not let me pay for the extraction.

I felt like I was fighting for them, including politically... but interestingly they hated that (and they still do).

And right now it feels the height of luxury and presumption to have moved here to the desert and to be climbing this much. There is so much need here, it’s such a underserved place. But I’ve been there, too, big time.  

I don’t have any answers except maybe our current mantra, “be kind” in any and every way we can. 

Lori Milaswrote:

I am starting to think there are 2 Carl's.  The literate, compassionate, thinker/athlete... and the potty-mouth beer drinking climber.  I have often wondered if you have a stand-in for when you're too drunk to post.      At any rate, I like them both.  Maybe that's more of your 'Carl-ness'.  

There are at least 2 of me, maybe more. I've been a bit depressed lately, Cindy asked today if it's a hormone thing. Maybe it is...

Old lady Hwrote:

I've got hives. No idea why. I just hope they're the go away fast type.

Carl can do some swearing for me. 

And hey, Carl? I do think bouldering outside leans on strength more. Plus, remember, the grading starts out harder. Anything easier would be, well, it would be scrambling. There may be V easy problems out there that are fun, but there's a lot more fun 5 stuff before you hit V0.

Fuck those hives! Cindy gets hives sometimes, I think she's on cortisone for them. Helen I agree many times bouldering demands more strength, but not always. It of course depends on the problem. I heard once that a V0 it pretty much equal to the moves you would find on a grade 20, V1 equates to grade 21 etc. I don't QUITE agree with that as I can do some V4s (outdoors, Grampians V4s) but could never do a grade 24 (hardest route I've ever done is a 23).  

Senor Arroz wrote:

My experience of bouldering is the exact opposite. I'm much stronger than my daughter or, for that matter, most women I know. But they tend to float up things that I have zero chance of muscling my way through. I feel like raw strength has very little use in climbing to be honest. People think we're doing pullups all day when, really, it's just vertical ballet.

I agree, sort of. Sometimes I'll basically do a chin up on a route or boulder problem. In fact, there's a route we put up here my mate named 'The Carleque Way'. There was really no way to get through it without basically doing a chin up half way through. However, if I find myself doing things like chinups through a route or boulder problem I know I'm actually climbing badly; I do count it as bad form...

BTW, looks like I found out how to quote multiple posts (nested quotes). Someone mentioned this the other day... Quote one as normal, then open another window, find the next post you want to quote, hit the quote link, copy and past the text into the FIRST quoted post that you still have in editing mode, select the text and hit the Quote button at top (").