Mountain Project Logo

Why use a third hand?

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
Jimmy Downhillinthesnow wrote: RGold, I usually agree with most of what you say but I have to disagree on this. The same argument ("it will build complacency" or something thereabouts) boils down for risk compensation. If people think something is safer, they will take more risks. Highway safety is a useful analogy. The same argument was made for seatbelts, then for airbags, then for stability control, etc etc. The reality is that all that technology has made driving way safer than it used to be--traffic deaths in the US are much lower than the 60s or 70s, while miles driven per person are up dramatically. Only the scourge of other bad behavior (probably cell phones) in the last few years has changed the trend.

I'm an ER doc. People are always finding new and creative ways to hurt themselves (and new and creative things to put up their butts). And everyone makes mistakes. The more steps we can put between an unlikely mistake or insanely bad luck and a fatality, the better. An auto block and knotted rope ends are simple, easy ways to keep a mistake from leading to a dead or mangled climber.

I did say that autoblocks seem to contribute to rappelling complacency and don't retract that statement.  If you climb in a congested area and watch what is going on around you, that conclusion seems to me to be unavoidable.  But I never argued against autoblocks and more than once said that backing up the rappeller is a good idea.   My original point, which I also do not retract, is that creating an environment that makes it more likely that someone will let go and then celebrating the effectiveness of the technology because someone did let go is not a compelling argument for the technology. Mistaking that observation for an argument against autoblocks is, however, a misunderstanding.

One of the interesting and, I think, inadvertent points that emerged from those advocating autoblocks (I want to say yet again that I was not and am not arguing against them) is an admission of the complexity of their application.  You have posters railing at the way the system is taught, even when highly experienced and maximally-qualified guides are involved.  They tell us the system is robust when implemented correctly while at the same time condemning a vast swath of common practice, at least some of it by experts.  To me this suggests something other than what is proposed, which is that it isn't all that easy to get the system right, and a lot of people are doing things wrong without realizing it.  If this is true (this isn't my argument, it is theirs), then we have a good formula for a type of complacency based on misplaced trust.

As for the highway safety analogy, I find it only superficially applicable.  None of the things mentioned directly cause potentially dangerous behavior.  The fallacious complacency argument  is based on the prediction of an altered psychology, which may or may not be present.  But beyond an altered psychology, the autoblock allows people to let go of the brake strand, i.e. makes easy something that was formerly immediately fatal, with the same fatal outcome likely if the autoblock does not function as expected.  This seems to me to be an entirely different category from seatbelts or airbags.

So here's what I'm saying.  By all means adopt  procedures for backing up your rappels, but treat them as the complex and occasionally unpredictable systems they really are.  Understand when they will work and when they won't, understand what problems they might create, and finally think of them as they was intended, namely as a backup for basic prudent behavior.
eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
rgold wrote: So here's what I'm saying.  By all means adopt  procedures for backing up your rappels, but treat them as the complex and occasionally unpredictable systems they really are.  Understand when they will work and when they won't, understand what problems they might create, and finally think of them as they was intended, namely as a backup for basic prudent behavior.

This is a point worth a big highlight. Several people have mentioned the ability to use the autoblock to go hands free for untangling, shooting photos, etc. In this situation, the autoblock is no longer the backup (with the brake hand being the primary), it's the primary system.

Which means that, unless you leg wrap or tie a catastrophe knot, you are no longer backed up, which is something that the third hand advocates seem to desire. Just keep that in mind next time you're out there hanging off your autoblock. 

i shore · · London · Joined May 2018 · Points: 0
Stiles wrote: Why wouldnt you use a rappel backup? 

I'd agree it is almost always worthwhile, especially where one might be hit by loose rock.
I do worry a bit when someone inexperienced is abseiling because they might grip the backup tightly and prevent it gripping if they lose control, or release the backup and be stranded midrope. Obviously a toprope or fireman's belay might be more appropriate. Guides sometimes abseil first having checked that their clients are correctly set up on the rope at the top beforehand. They then protect the abseiling clients with a fireman's belay from the bottom, also avoiding possible difficulties with an autoblock.

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 470

I totally agree with RG that the autoblock is not foolproof and is often misused. I also through trial and error have a  personal system that absolutely works, has saved my life more than once and that I would feel quite stupid  if I stopped using this system and went back to a leg wrap. I am one of those old dogs who actually can and does learn new tricks when and if I deem them usefull.  And yes I know that when going hands free on the autoblock I have no back up yet I am fine with that because I understand how the system works.  There is very little force on the autoblock. the autoblock is simply a brake hand  that grips  about 10 times better than a human hand when set up properly. learn this through trial and error. 

Joe Prescott · · Berlin Germany · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 6

Nick, can you share your setup? I've been climbing since the early 90s and I very rarely have used a back-up (autoblock). Not that I am against them, just never got into it or experimented with various systems. There are times when I wish I had one, especially long mulitpitch raps on thin ropes when tired, etc. A bunch of people say they have a great system or say that other people's systems that they see are sub-par. What is a good and simple system? I'm of the KISS side of things. Just a guy that raps of his rap loop with a tuber (Pivot usually).

Bill Lawry · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 1,814
Jimmy Downhillinthesnow wrote:People are always finding new and creative ways to hurt themselves (and new and creative things to put up their butts).

To maybe add to Eli’s followup on the above ....

Sitting in urgent care, a young girl (six?) walked in crying and with her Dad. Dad reported at the desk that his girl had a carrot stuck up her nose. I mentioned to my wife, an RN, that later they walked out with the problem apparently resolved - no more tears. My wife’s response: “Did they use a rabbit to get it out?”

Anyway, a hitch as a rap backup -  above or below the device - is a Goldilocks effort. I only mean that there is a sweet spot where it will work. Too little intrinsic friction when loose and it will not grip in a surprise letting go. Too much intrinsic friction and sliding it down the rope can be an epic and so a distracting effort. 

And, especially to the novice, seemingly minor circumstances matter such as a few inches difference in the length of the cord loop - to name only one of many variables - can make a difference between success and failure in a surprise.

My hat is off to folks like Nick and aikibujin who have the complexity sorted out - and I do mean that sincerely.
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
eli poss wrote:

Hilarious. An old roommates was a trauma nurse and had several x-ray pictures of stuff people put up their butts. I remember an x ray of not 1, not 2, not even 5, but 14 little toy cars (like Hotwheels or matchbox cars). I'm genuinely curious as to what is going through somebody's head when they make these kind of decisions. 

Sounds like a hippa violation. 

Jon Rhoderick · · Redmond, OR · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 966

It’s only a HIPPA violation if there are patient identifiers

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
Jon Rhoderick wrote: It’s only a HIPPA violation if there are patient identifiers

Most Xrays are labeled with one or more identifiers. Regardless, it violates the spirit of hipaa, almost certainly violates the policies of their hospital, and is generally just a despicable thing to do, to steal someone's medical imaging and share it with a non-medical professional for the purpose of laughing at your patient at their most vulnerable when they came to you for help and expected privacy, professionalism, and respect. 

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
Em Cos wrote:

Most Xrays are labeled with one or more identifiers. Regardless, it violates the spirit of hipaa, almost certainly violates the policies of their hospital, and is generally just a despicable thing to do, to steal someone's medical imaging and share it with a non-medical professional for the purpose of laughing at your patient at their most vulnerable when they came to you for help and expected privacy, professionalism, and respect. 

It was a picture on a phone of the x ray without any identifiers, not an actual x-ray. 

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
Jaren Watson wrote:

I agree with you, in theory, because your point is a good one. But if we can't laugh at an anonymous person who put 14 matchbox cars up his/her butt . . . I don't know how to finish this sentence.

Well that's a real human in real pain, so while you certainly can laugh at them if you choose, that doesn't make it any less a kinda shitty thing to do. And while you might not be able to help being amused by that in the moment, taking a picture with your phone, bringing it home, without patient consent, sharing it with a non-medical professional for the purposes of further mocking a person, in likely violation of hospital policies, is pretty awful from my point of view. You only have access to that image because of your position of trust as a medical professional, and stealing, sharing, and mocking it is a certain violation of that trust. 

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 470

Yea butt they  put  14 toy cars up their  butt.  At that  point all  Betts are off..   like  what  exactly  did you  expect to happen...

curt86iroc · · Lakewood, CO · Joined Dec 2014 · Points: 274
Em Cos wrote:

Well that's a real human in real pain, so while you certainly can laugh at them if you choose, that doesn't make it any less a kinda shitty thing to do. And while you might not be able to help being amused by that in the moment, taking a picture with your phone, bringing it home, without patient consent, sharing it with a non-medical professional for the purposes of further mocking a person, in likely violation of hospital policies, is pretty awful from my point of view. You only have access to that image because of your position of trust as a medical professional, and stealing, sharing, and mocking it is a certain violation of that trust. 

I'm not going to weight in personally on whether i think this behavior is acceptable, but i will say it's fairly commonplace in a lot of first repsonder circles (police, fire, EMS, SAR etc.). it happens...a lot...

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
Nick Goldsmith wrote: Yea butt they  put  14 toy cars up their  butt.  At that  point all  Betts are off..   like  what  exactly  did you  expect to happen...

What if you were to learn that the patient in question was an 8 year old child, who was attacked and sexually assaulted by their teenage neighbor, who forcibly sodomized them with toys? Or that they had permanent damage from this event? I'm not saying that's a likely scenario, just asking you to consider what factors contribute to your deciding it is or is not acceptable to gain someone's trust as a medical professional, at one of their most painful and vulnerable moments, steal their most private image without their consent or knowledge, share it with non-medical professionals for non-medical reasons, for the purpose of mocking them? What factors mean "all bets are off"? What level of not-normal-to-you behavior removes their right to privacy and respect? Would you feel any differently if this were a photo of someone's genitals that this medical professional stole to share with friends for sexual gratification? Why would laughter and mocking be ok but sexual gratification would not be? 

Bottom line, this person had this image based on their capacity as a medical professional, stole it and used it for their own selfish non-medical purposes, in direct violation of their patient's privacy and trust.  The fact that it's subjectively a funny situation to you doesn't change that. 
Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
curt86iroc wrote:

I'm not going to weight in personally on whether i think this behavior is acceptable, but i will say it's fairly commonplace in a lot of first repsonder circles (police, fire, EMS, SAR etc.). it happens...a lot...

That's both true and, as you implied, irrelevant to whether it's acceptable. 

eli poss · · Durango, CO · Joined May 2014 · Points: 525
Em Cos wrote:

Well that's a real human in real pain, so while you certainly can laugh at them if you choose, that doesn't make it any less a kinda shitty thing to do. And while you might not be able to help being amused by that in the moment, taking a picture with your phone, bringing it home, without patient consent, sharing it with a non-medical professional for the purposes of further mocking a person, in likely violation of hospital policies, is pretty awful from my point of view. You only have access to that image because of your position of trust as a medical professional, and stealing, sharing, and mocking it is a certain violation of that trust. 

Sure, it's far from taking the ethical high road, I'll give you that. But if it is completely anonymous and all of that, then it can't really harm the patient. I usually don't like having a laugh at the expense of somebody else, but if there's no harm to the patient then all you're doing is lightening somebody's day with humor. 

If it's not okay to laugh at someone or something when no harm can come of it then you probably need to lighten up a little bit. The fact of the matter is that humans can and do make dumb decisions and trying to hide that is not very productive. We all know that a little bit of humor every day can be a very healthy thing.

Oh and I can tell you for a fact that this was not a case of any abuse or sodomy. 
Buck Rio · · MN · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 16
Briggs Lazalde wrote:

To this point, my EMT friends said any one who doesn't do the job won't understand but generally they laugh and make light hearted jokes of the trauma they experience in order to deal and cope with it... Life is more miserable for everyone when no one is laughing. Don't laugh at their expense but like Eli said, its really not at their expense


So...what's your record? I once shoved 15 beads from a faux pearl necklace up my nose.

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
eli poss wrote:

Sure, it's far from taking the ethical high road, I'll give you that. But if it is completely anonymous and all of that, then it can't really harm the patient. I usually don't like having a laugh at the expense of somebody else, but if there's no harm to the patient then all you're doing is lightening somebody's day with humor. 

If it's not okay to laugh at someone or something when no harm can come of it then you probably need to lighten up a little bit. The fact of the matter is that humans can and do make dumb decisions and trying to hide that is not very productive. We all know that a little bit of humor every day can be a very healthy thing.

Oh and I can tell you for a fact that this was not a case of any abuse or sodomy. 

If it's "far from taking the ethical high road", you are admitting it's not really the right thing to do. If doing this is wrong, the patient in question not finding out doesn't make it less wrong, it just makes you less likely to be caught. How would you feel if it was a photo of you? None of us is immune from some day, doing something we're not proud of, that someone else might think was funny. When you need medical help you want to be able to trust your medical professionals to act professionally. To say it's ok if it's funny enough, or it's ok if they brought the situation on themselves, or it's ok if they never find out, is just trying to rationalize your own bad behavior. 

How can you tell us for a fact what this case was about unless your friend did, indeed, share more personal information beyond an anoymous xray?
Soft Catch · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2018 · Points: 0

MP has taught me that all rules have exceptions.

For example, it's ok to chip holds if you are a 5.12+ climber and it's ok to violate hipaa when there are 11+ cars up the patient's butt.

Andrew Krajnik · · Plainfield, IL · Joined Jul 2016 · Points: 1,739
Sloppy Second wrote: MP has taught me that all rules have exceptions.

For example, it's ok to chip holds if you are a 5.12+ climber and it's ok to violate hipaa when there are 11+ cars up the patient's butt.

That's a very succinct summary of the discussion to date. Thanks for that.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
Post a Reply to "Why use a third hand?"

Log In to Reply
Welcome

Join the Community! It's FREE

Already have an account? Login to close this notice.