Why use a third hand?

I'd laugh at an X-ray of 14 hot wheels cars up someones butt.

Em Cos wrote:

How would you feel if it was a photo of you? 

First of all, I can tell you for a fact that if I put 14 hotwheels cars up my butt that I would probably be laughing at myself too. Having shit myself 400' off the deck in front of my friends while rapping down, I know how to laugh at myself. It was a shitty experience (pun intended), but it did force me to learn to laugh at myself, which is valuable IMO.

Another time, I was forced to do the squat and cough thing while being searched, and just so happened to have eaten something bad previously. I ended up having diarrhea on the floor in front of a stranger.  Anyways, the point is, it is possible to take a potentially humiliating experience and turn it into something humorous.

How can you tell us for a fact what this case was about unless your friend did, indeed, share more personal information beyond an anoymous xray?

According to my roommate, another nurse told her to come look at an x ray of some drunk dude who decided to put something up his butt. My roommate had no contact with the patient, nor did she ever learn of any identifiers, but snapped a picture on her phone. If I recall correctly, this was at an ER in Las Vegas and apparently this sort of thing happens pretty regularly there. 

Meet the following climbers:

• The Lazy Guy/Gal: 
  • Statement: It takes too much time. 
  • Solution: Use one anyways. Your rigging time will improve with practice.
• The It Won't Happen to Me Guy/Gal: 
  • Excuse: I don't need a backup, this is an easy/short rap. 
  • Solution: Use one anyways
• The Tough Guy/Gal: 
  • Statement: *chest pumped and says* I never use a backup. 
  • Response: You're rad. I bet you have like 10 kids too. No pro. No problem. (Reference Solution: The It Won't Happen to Me Guy/Gal above)
• The Self Conscience Guy/Gal: 
  • Thought: I don't know how to rig a third hand, but I don't want to admit it because I don't want to seem inferior. 
  • Solution: Admit that you don't know. Have someone show you. Then, at your first opportunity hire a guide and learn some sick shit.
• Mr/Ms Old School: 
  • Statement: What's with climbers these days trying to make climbing safer? In our day..."insert long story about a past experience with loads of risk here. End it with a happy ending."
  • Response: Keep doing you. You made it this far, right? What could go wrong" (Reference Solution: The It Won't Happen to Me Guy/Gal above)
• The Ignorant Guy/Gal: 
  • Statement: I learned how to rappel from an inexperienced friend. I don't even know what a third hand is. But, what you don't know can't hurt you...right?
  • Solution: Wrong. Go get a guide immediately. 
• Mr/Ms Too Big to Fail: 
  • Thought: I have so much experience, therefore, I don't need to use additional safety mechanisms because I'm just that skilled.
  • Response: Keep doing you. You made it this far, right? What could possibly go wrong?" (Reference Solution: The It Won't Happen to Me Guy/Gal above)

This was meant to be in good humor. Everyone is free to make their own choices. Just don't pass on bad practices to others; because that's lame! Third hands are awesome! If you don't know how to rig one, just have a fun day in the mountains with a guide!

Em. If it was a child then absolutely off limits. If it was (probably is) some drunk fat politatard repuglican from supertopo stuffing 14 toy cars up his ass  then there is absolutely no problem with co workers going OMG have a look at this shit.. this  type of hand wringing is precisely what gives liberals a bad reputation. 

Briggs Lazalde wrote: ....literally hung on an autoblock 100+ times.... 

Yeah, me too. Usually improvised with an 8mm Dyneema sling.

I'm dead now, by the way. It's really boring, so I'm reading this thread.

Bob Klaas wrote: Meet the following climbers:

• The Lazy Guy/Gal: 
  • Statement: It takes too much time. 
  • Solution: Use one anyways. Your rigging time will improve with practice.
• The It Won't Happen to Me Guy/Gal: 
  • Excuse: I don't need a backup, this is an easy/short rap. 
  • Solution: Use one anyways
• The Tough Guy/Gal: 
  • Statement: *chest pumped and says* I never use a backup. 
  • Response: You're rad. I bet you have like 10 kids too. No pro. No problem. (Reference Solution: The It Won't Happen to Me Guy/Gal above)
• The Self Conscience Guy/Gal: 
  • Thought: I don't know how to rig a third hand, but I don't want to admit it because I don't want to seem inferior. 
  • Solution: Admit that you don't know. Have someone show you. Then, at your first opportunity hire a guide and learn some sick shit.
• Mr/Ms Old School: 
  • Statement: What's with climbers these days trying to make climbing safer? In our day..."insert long story about a past experience with loads of risk here. End it with a happy ending."
  • Response: Keep doing you. You made it this far, right? What could go wrong" (Reference Solution: The It Won't Happen to Me Guy/Gal above)
• The Ignorant Guy/Gal: 
  • Statement: I learned how to rappel from an inexperienced friend. I don't even know what a third hand is. But, what you don't know can't hurt you...right?
  • Solution: Wrong. Go get a guide immediately. 
• Mr/Ms Too Big to Fail: 
  • Thought: I have so much experience, therefore, I don't need to use additional safety mechanisms because I'm just that skilled.
  • Response: Keep doing you. You made it this far, right? What could possibly go wrong?" (Reference Solution: The It Won't Happen to Me Guy/Gal above)

This was meant to be in good humor. Everyone is free to make their own choices. Just don't pass on bad practices to others; because that's lame! Third hands are awesome! If you don't know how to rig one, just have a fun day in the mountains with a guide!

Pretty snide coming from a new trad leader. 

I don't really see how this is much different than not wearing a helmet, or belaying with an ATC, running it out on easy ground when pro is available, committing to a long climb when the forecast isn't splitter, or any number of other choices that we all make when we go climbing. There are many things that could provide a marginally greater level of safety, but sometimes there are trade-offs. Sometimes the trade-off is as simple as being uncomfortable doing something in a different way than you've done it for many, many years, sometimes it's a little more complex. It took me a long time to get on board with using a gri-gri to belay but I now it's the first thing I turn to, but that doesn't mean I look down on partners who stick to their ATCs (indeed, I still use them whenever multiple rappels could be necessary).  

I'm making an effort, personally, to try to incorporate a third-hand into my rappelling, but as I mentioned up-thread, it's really hard to give up the old ingrained death-grip reflex which has served me well for a long time. It's not laziness or bravado. Ironically, part of what's held me back in getting comfortable is that I eschew rappelling whenever possible and will always opt for a walk-off if one is available and my partner agrees (for example, most people who climb the Diamond would rather rap the face because it's more convenient to leave stuff on Broadway. I prefer to walk-off; although less convenient, I think it's safer or at least, subjectively, I prefer it because I hate rappelling, which I perceive as higher-risk.)  

I'm glad, truly, that you're learning best practices early on. I don't think the know-it-all attitude will necessarily serve you well in the long run, though.

Can someone to explain why the same logic driving the "you must always use a third hand" posts doesn't equally dictate that "you must always use an assisted breaking device to belay." Or does it?

Charles Vernon wrote: Can someone to explain why the same logic driving the "you must always use a third hand" posts doesn't equally dictate that "you must always use an assisted breaking device to belay." Or does it?

Sure, we can make a slippery-slope argument about every safety practice. There are no absolutes. It comes down to a subjective, and personal assessment of risk and probability. 

I think that the probability of losing the brake hand on rap are small but much higher than that of letting go on belay. Letting go on rap almost certainly means a bad outcome, letting go on belay only has consequences if it coincides with the climber falling, which diminishes the probability quite a bit.  There's more going on when rapping, managing the rope, bypassing obstacles, etc. It's generally easier to stay focused when belaying. And rapping often happens at the end of the day when tired and dehydrated.

I rapped for decades without a third hand but now do so regularly because I climb with my kids, I require them to use one, and feel I should "practice what I preach"  (same with helmets.)

With practice, setting up an autoblock only takes a few moments and it's a habit I'm glad I developed.

Sloppy Second wrote:

Sure, we can make a slippery-slope argument about every safety practice. There are no absolutes. It comes down to a subjective, and personal assessment of risk and probability. 

I think that the probability of losing the brake hand on rap are small but much higher than that of letting go on belay. Letting go on rap almost certainly means a bad outcome, letting go on belay only has consequences if it coincides with the climber falling, which diminishes the probability quite a bit.  There's more going on when rapping, managing the rope, bypassing obstacles, etc. It's generally easier to stay focused when belaying. And rapping often happens at the end of the day when tired and dehydrated.

Interesting. Just to clarify, though, I wasn't making a slippery-slope argument; I was asking assuming that the probability and consequences of losing control of the belay (which is most likely to happen when the climber is falling or lowering) vs a rappel are similar. Obviously, that's debatable, and we likely don't have anywhere near enough data to know. Anecdotally and speculatively they strike me as similarly catastrophic, but your take on it is certainly fair. 

Everyone is so  quick to  get  people  fired... some must always  be punished.  Jesus h god  blasted  christ.  The drunk  pervert  asshole  put  14 cars  up his butt....  that is some  crazy  shit ...

Charles Vernon wrote:

Pretty snide coming from a new trad leader. 

I don't really see how this is much different than not wearing a helmet, or belaying with an ATC, running it out on easy ground when pro is available, committing to a long climb when the forecast isn't splitter, or any number of other choices that we all make when we go climbing. There are many things that could provide a marginally greater level of safety, but sometimes there are trade-offs. Sometimes the trade-off is as simple as being uncomfortable doing something in a different way than you've done it for many, many years, sometimes it's a little more complex. It took me a long time to get on board with using a gri-gri to belay but I now it's the first thing I turn to, but that doesn't mean I look down on partners who stick to their ATCs (indeed, I still use them whenever multiple rappels could be necessary).  

I'm making an effort, personally, to try to incorporate a third-hand into my rappelling, but as I mentioned up-thread, it's really hard to give up the old ingrained death-grip reflex which has served me well for a long time. It's not laziness or bravado. Ironically, part of what's held me back in getting comfortable is that I eschew rappelling whenever possible and will always opt for a walk-off if one is available and my partner agrees (for example, most people who climb the Diamond would rather rap the face because it's more convenient to leave stuff on Broadway. I prefer to walk-off; although less convenient, I think it's safer or at least, subjectively, I prefer it because I hate rappelling, which I perceive as higher-risk.)  

I'm glad, truly, that you're learning best practices early on. I don't think the know-it-all attitude will necessarily serve you well in the long run, though.

I know it's bordering on pathology that I've been checking back in on this...

But as a clarification, you don't "give up the old ingrained death-grip reflex", you simply add a third hand. People who introduce this redundancy don't rappel less-safely. Same death grip, third hand for emergency/convenience.

Tom Sherman wrote:

I know it's bordering on pathology that I've been checking back in on this...

We can at least agree about this!

But as a clarification, you don't "give up the old ingrained death-grip reflex", you simply add a third hand. People who introduce this redundancy don't rappel less-safely. Same death grip, third hand for emergency/convenience.

Simply? Wasn't it you that said that most people you see do it wrong and that a leading climbing org teaches it wrong? And someone else mentioned that they literally can't find an on-line tutorial that gets it right. Another report involved an apparent auto-block failure by the co-owner of Jackson Hole Mountain Guides, resulting in his death. This thread has been eye-opening; my biggest take away is that setting up an auto-block that lacks a failure mode is surprisingly complicated, much more so than I had realized; that many experienced climbers get it wrong; and that it takes a lot of work to fine-tune the system. I guess, in the end, that makes me feel better about my past resistance to using them (a secret source of shame, to be sure). But I'm also more committed to investigating how to do it right in the future, so the thread's been valuable for me, at least. 

(As far as the "death grip" thing goes, I am willing to admit that it might be my poor technique and lack of experience with the system distracting from the ordinary distribution of my focus when rappelling.)  

Em Cos wrote:

Well that's a real human in real pain, so while you certainly can laugh at them if you choose, that doesn't make it any less a kinda shitty thing to do.

If I ever somehow fit 14 matchbox cars up my butt, I really hope someone in the ER takes pictures, and posts them here. I’m glad some people still have a sense of humor. I would just be disappointed that I didn’t break any records.
It’s  ok to stay off topic, since Rgold pretty much resolved this a couple of times, pages ago, eh? 

Charles Vernon wrote: We can at least agree about this!

Simply? Wasn't it you that said that most people you see do it wrong and that a leading climbing org teaches it wrong? And someone else mentioned that they literally can't find an on-line tutorial that gets it right. Another report involved an apparent auto-block failure by the co-owner of Jackson Hole Mountain Guides, resulting in his death. This thread has been eye-opening; my biggest take away is that setting up an auto-block that lacks a failure mode is surprisingly complicated, much more so than I had realized; that many experienced climbers get it wrong; and that it takes a lot of work to fine-tune the system. I guess, in the end, that makes me feel better about my past resistance to using them (a secret source of shame, to be sure). But I'm also more committed to investigating how to do it right in the future, so the thread's been valuable for me, at least. 

(As far as the "death grip" thing goes, I am willing to admit that it might be my poor technique and lack of experience with the system distracting from the ordinary distribution of my focus when rappelling.)  

Yeah, valid point. But it is simple, very simple. People doing it wrong fall in to two camps, they either: have shit where there brains were supposed to go (and I stress this is about 75% of the population, so not unheard of) or are obsessed with a counterintuitive level of fuckery in the name of redundancy.

The former, me being a jerk and exaggerating about the lack of critical thinking and reassessment in most folks. The latter being an obsession with technicality, postulated safety in unheard of scenarios, and complete disregard for simplicity.

yo my auotoblock was a gift from a homie who said: i dont want my friends to die preventable deaths.
and i keep it on my harness, yeah, even at the fucking gym cuz i have one harness, and thee it will stay.
i rig it. i use it almost every repel, and especially in the mountains. ive definitely let go of the rope to keep from face planting and been very glad it was there...
i have a friend who never rigs one and i love him dearly, and its his choice still, his life choice. hopefully never one i have to work with, but that's a risk im willing to take climbing with him.

climbing choices are so hotly debated...
im into safety cuz i love my mom dukes and think she'd appreciate me being asap

@Charles, not a know it all! But, we all jump to conclusions sometimes. You are forgiven. :P

This is my set up as photographed today. I am Fully aware that it is not AMGA single pitch approved.  This setup absolutely works every time for me with thousands of hours in use.  No despite the fact that it is not extended per AMGA rules  and fully against AMGA rules it is attached to my leg loop instead of my belay loop I do Not go upside down when in use.  The only time I ever went upside down was when I was working under a huge roof and I fully intended to go upside down to reach a certain spot with a wire brush.   The biner is duct taped to the leg loop. Even if the plastic buckle on my leg loop broke this biner is in a closed loop and can not come off.  No the Biner is not a locker per AMGA rulze. They can pound sand.  The non locker works perfectly and the convenience of being able to quickly deploy or change number of loops far outweighs any need for a locker in this application. Photo #1 this is a fairly low angle 30m rap  on single rated  9.2mm rope.  I have a minimum number of raps around the rope. Fast smooth rap but it grabs every time I let go. The last 5 m is a somewhat dynamic grab but still grabs. It also grabs every time when  gripped  with the panic grip.  News flash. You can't death grip the auto block and let go of the brake strands at the same time. Photo #1

   In the 2nd shot we have a steep 37m rappel. Same 9.2mm rope.  I have more wraps on this one and  have complete and total control for the entire length of the rappel. It will grab instantly any time I let go.  Photo #2. Even the tail end of the rappel has complete grip if I let go. Only trial, error and lots of time in use will teach you how tight to wrap the rope every time for  the best combination of speed and safety for each rope combination in your quiver.  Every situation is different. The number of wraps around the rope may  change for every different rope combination and situation. In some cases I may stop mid rappel to add more wraps to increase breaking power.  There is not black and white. It is all gray but it works for me.

Looks like a nice and tight unit.  What cord diameter for the hitch? Am just curious, Nick.

the yellow stuff at EMS?? most likely 5 or 6mm???? due for a replacement. Did a huge 5+ today. Le Promenade With Andy Tuthill. Old mans day at the cliff. 118 combined years . Probably about 90 combined years of climbing experience. We both rocked an auto block on the way down. Swinging into the cave  and trying to grab the anchor I was SO happy to be backed up...   Andy doing the swing 7.8mm  Sterlings.

Nice.

Rapped with a partner on Saturday on sunny SW slab.  He used a third hand. I did not. We had a good day together. :)