Why use a third hand?

Looks like this is where we start to beat on our hairy chests again. :)

I am neither for or against auto blocs in general. But it can be a good discussion point.

Now, if I can only find that data from my “backyard” experiment.

Em Cos wrote:

I beg to differ on that.... but I'm very glad she's ok!

This is still the reason I prefer my belayer's use a grigri... while not impossible to overcome it's always a factor.

From “backyard” testing of third hand in a doorway. Used maybe a 20 pound weight dropped from top of doorway so admittedly not a lot of travel - 5 feet? French prusik was attached to harness with both ends to same biner.  There was no fouling of the prusik with the ATC.

I believe the asterisks led to an explanation of about how engaged the hitch was before releasing the load. Basically, I would aim each time to have the hitch about as constricted as one would normally have to slide it down the brake strand. Then I’d let go of both it and the brake strand as though knocked unconscious. And I often made multiple trials for a config.

At least one of the configs (e.g., A9?) had too much intrinsic friction to slide down half a rope length or so - I mean, not practical to actually use throughout a normal rap.

The table could be expanded to vary rope diameter and include using two rope strands ... if anyone is inclined to try the experiment.

Bottom line for me:

In a surprise letting go of the brake strand and auto bloc, it is evident there are easily at least eight concrete things that contribute to success or failure. Granted, most of them you can tune and reliably control most of the time.

And in saying that, I reasonably twice-used the word “most”. Which is hardly a certainty that warrants the words “ignorance” or “arrogance” to describe those who opt out (or opt in) of using a third hand 100% of the time.

Bill Lawry wrote:

It did not directly address the point. 

What? That doesn't even make sense. I spent two posts, going into a third now, addressing this specific point.

Even properly set up, there will be some cases where it makes the bump test harder. Heck, even without an extension, some circumstances make the so-called bump test awkward. So it is not much of a stretch to imagine an extension adding a bit more to that (Note: the bump test is not something I rely on much.)

"Harder" and "awkward" aren't failure modes, are they? It is only an issue if it's impossible to transfer the weight to the device (I'm going to stop using the term bump test. Transfering the weight is what's important, once you transfer the weight to the device with the tether still attached, you can bump test, bounce test, jump up and down test all you want). You kept saying there are cases this, there are cases that, but no specifics. How about use your stretch of imagination to come up with a scenario where you can transfer weight to a device attached directly to the harness, but impossible to do with an *PROPERLY* extended device? Here's scenario to consider: what if you're at a freehanging anchor under a roof? I don't know how you'd even get something like that in real life, but let's say you're freehanging from the anchor, nowhere to stand, nothing except the anchor to hold on to. Even in this scenario, I can still transfer my weight to an extended device.

And I used the system for about a year with 5mm cord. This was around the time a video came out of a probably novice canyoneer decking while rapping a single line with a hitch below the device. BTW, that video was not what  led me to discontinue using it - I already had.

Edit to add: someone else upstream alluded that an improperly set up auto bloc that allowing the hitch to reach the ATC will simply jam in the device and halt the rap. There is also some probability the ATC will simply push the hitch down the line.

So you used an autoblock backup for a year and decided you don’t like it. How long was your extension, and how long was your cord? Ten years. Probably more. I think that’s about how long I’ve used an autoblock backup. But I’m not someone who’s set in my ways, I can be persuaded if logical and reasonable arguments are made. Before the autoblock I used no backup except maybe a firemans if someone is below; then I was persuaded to use autoblock off my leg loop, because it made sense at the time; when the failure mode of an inverted fall became well-known, I switched to the extended method, again because it made sense. And so far, no one has come up with any failure mode or any logical reason to persuade me to not use a properly extended device. Everything discussed so far has been improper set up or improper use of the system. I gave two critically important factors in how to properly set up the extended method, and you kept coming back with “but an improperly set up autoblock will do this…” It's easy to find problems with an improperly set up system, that's the definition of an improperly set up system, it has problems. Even your backyard test was addressed in my post: keep your loop as short as possible. Look at your test in row 12, and look at what I said about the loop should only be long enough to wrap around two strands of rope three times and just be able to clip back into the biner. What if you're rapping on a single strand? That same length of loop can be wrapped around a single strand at least four times, five times if you're using a skinny line (my setup has been used on ropes from 8mm to 10.5mm). If you can come up with an actual failure of a proper (I kept repeating this word because people just don't seem to get it) setup, I'll be interested in learning more. Otherwise, this is becoming a waste of my time.

I am also part of the generation that started climbing in the early 90's before there were gyms and guides on every corner.  I only took one course and that was with Rainier Mountaineering Inc in 1990 which got me into mountaineering.   I learned the death grip on rappel and using ATC's to belay.  I use the leg wrap when I need hands free.  I don't have anything against a third hand, but I do believe it creates complacency much like a Gri Gri does.  The more automated the system, the less a person focuses on what they are doing.  (I just learned to lead-belay with a gri-gri last year.  While it has it's advantages, I am still more comfortable lead-belaying with my ATC.)

Now days there are pre-sewn prussiks, pre-sewn autoblocks, and whole rigs set up just for crevasse rescue or just for rappelling  I think it takes away from the ability to decision-make and trouble shoot.  Forgot your pre-sewn autoblock at home?  Now what?   Climbers who used to tie their own just use a piece of cord or webbing.  Those who have only learned on the pre-made stuff no longer have those same soft-skills of decision making and improvising.   This is getting kind of off topic, but this what Rgold and a few others are talking about; reliance more on a piece of gear than reliance on training and one's own ability.

When I am tired at the top of a long multi-pitch, I will use a third hand.   It makes sense in some situations but it is only there as a back-up, not as my primary stopping ability.   Where I find it unnecessary is at the sport crag where the routes are 30 feet off the deck.  I see people spend five minutes setting up their third-hand when the rappel is only going to take 30 seconds and during those 30 seconds there should be no need to let go of the rope.   Third hands, knots in the end of the rope, extra prussiks on harness, 10 essentials, etc all have there place in certain situations, but I don't think they are required in every situation.  

As for the OP, when you learn without any type of backup, the instinct quickly becomes the deathgrip on the rope.  Same for belaying.   If I feel slippage or a faceplant coming, my instincts are both hands on the rope, tuck my chin and turn my shoulder into the rock or ground to take the fall.  In 29 years of climbing, I have never let go of my brake hand (rappelling or belaying) out of instinct.  There are situations out of ones control which would cause a person to let go, but those are third-party forces such as rockfall or a heart-attack, and in those cases a third hand would prevent a fatality.

kevin R wrote: Now days there are pre-sewn prussiks, pre-sewn autoblocks, and whole rigs set up just for crevasse rescue or just for rappelling  I think it takes away from the ability to decision-make and trouble shoot.  Forgot your pre-sewn autoblock at home?  Now what?   Climbers who used to tie their own just use a piece of cord or webbing.  Those who have only learned on the pre-made stuff no longer have those same soft-skills of decision making and improvising.   This is getting kind of off topic, but this what Rgold and a few others are talking about; reliance more on a piece of gear than reliance on training and one's own ability.

When I am tired at the top of a long multi-pitch, I will use a third hand.   It makes sense in some situations but it is only there as a back-up, not as my primary stopping ability.   Where I find it unnecessary is at the sport crag where the routes are 30 feet off the deck.  I see people spend five minutes setting up their third-hand when the rappel is only going to take 30 seconds and during those 30 seconds there should be no need to let go of the rope.   Third hands, knots in the end of the rope, extra prussiks on harness, 10 essentials, etc all have there place in certain situations, but I don't think they are required in every situation.  

I'm 52, I also learned the old way with a Sticht plate and11 mm ropes. 

I think the thinner ropes out today are much harder to control that the beefier fuzz bombs we had in the 90's. I was climbing last September and had a mostly free hanging rappel, and I WISH that I had a third hand. The 9.2 mm Dry Treated ropes were very hard to control through my Trango Pyramid in regular mode. I went out and bought a pair of the Petzl gloves after that.

Since I normally set my rappel up off of my Chain Reactor, even with my chin, a few wraps of hollow bloc takes me almost no time. Either clipped to my leg loop or to my belay loop. I usually use a Klemheist.

those of you who do not use a back up but preach that it promotes complacency are talking smack.  use it  and see for yourself then comment.  those who quote testing that shows the auto block below the device does not work are useing test data from people who don't know how to use an auto block.  I have literally hundreds of hours hanging hands free with auto blocks cleaning and equipping routes. thousands if you count the new routeing with the regular shenaganins of untangleing ropes, building v threads etc on normal raps. if you know how to use it the auto block below device absolutely works, if not then  it absolutely will slip.  If it takes you a min to set up you don't know how to use it.  Should take less than 20 seconds. I would argue that the auto block is not a beginners tool. I never teach it to noobs.  I use a different wrap for every application. I use a different number of wraps for rope condition, diameter, numbers of strands, steepness of rapell and how much rope is out. Often I will stop halfway down and add an extra wrap. 

Nick Goldsmith wrote: if you know how to use it the auto block below device absolutely works, if not then  it absolutely will slip.  If it takes you a min to set up you don't know how to use it.  Should take less than 20 seconds [...] Often I will stop halfway down and add an extra wrap. 

You have to stop mid-rap and rejigger "often"? Sounds super convenient. So what happens if it starts raining choss while you're adding a wrap mid pitch? How many seconds does it add to the process to stop mid pitch, throw some wraps around your leg, add a wrap to your autoblock, unwrap the leg and then continue down?

I am just playing devil's advocate here, but I must admit that I'm not hearing any arguments that are convincing me to switch from rapping with a MegaJul. Which, yes, you can do with one hand, its just a bit jerkier and harder to control. 

if you are on 70m  7.8mm half ropes @ the lake  when you start the rap  you have ton  of breaking power and 3 spins around the rope works fine, about halfway down I unclip and add one  more flip around the rope. This takes  3 seconds for a pro.  If you start with a comfortable  system on a 70m dead vert rap it will not reliably grab you on the final 20m of your rappel. Like I said the autoblock is not foolproof and is not a beginners tool.   It is not a license to not pay attention. in fact it is one more thing that should keep you paying attention. 

Have fun building an anchor on dead verticle or overhanging terrain in the dark with skinny iced up ropes and no auto block.

Yes it can be done but nothing I need to ever do again.

So you unclip the autoblock... and leave yourself without a backup for 3 seconds? I wonder how many more seconds it would take to just rap the last half of the rope.

If you're building an anchor, why not just take a few wraps around your leg? Takes less time than setting up an autoblock, no matter how "pro" you are. 

you do whatever you want. personally I think wrapping the rope around your leg is fcking stupid when there is a perfectly easy bomber hands free alternative.  My rig lives attached to my leg. no locker. it works.  yes you could rap that last 20 m  fast as fck and do the next 70m at the same time  and then I have to waste my day scrapeing you up... Whatever...  Wrapping the rope around your leg is extra  fcking  stupid when there is only about a meter or 2 of rope left and nothing but space under your butt...

aikibujin wrote: A quick Google search yielded article 1, article 2, article 3, article 4, article 5, and a video. Most of these would be considered "trusted sources" by many. No offense to any of the authors (I know one of them personally), but none of them got it right.

...

These are two pretty important factors in the practical use of setting up a third-hand with an extended device, yet no online articles talk about how to get this right.

I gotta say, as someone who is struggling to embrace the autoblock but really would like to, it's pretty disturbing that not one expert gets it right. How did you learn the right way to do it? Trial and error? You can't point to any comprehensive overview of how to do it right? I'm not trying to be argumentative; I would really like to see one. 

Charles Vernon wrote:

I gotta say, as someone who is struggling to embrace the autoblock but really would like to, it's pretty disturbing that not one expert gets it right. How did you learn the right way to do it? Trial and error? You can't point to any comprehensive overview of how to do it right? I'm not trying to be argumentative; I would really like to see one. 

I know and they still won’t certify how to wipe my ass, but I insist 

This accident happened to an acquaintance of mine a couple of years ago at Devils Tower. She and her husband (both experienced and safe climbers) were rappelling, and this was the last rappel to the ground (I’m not sure which rappel station they were using). About 30 feet from the ground, the rope was piled on a ledge. She stopped on the ledge comfortably standing up. She tossed the rope down and saw it lying on the ground. She grabbed the brake side of the rope, leaned back, and fell about 20 feet before smashing violently into the wall badly fracturing her ankle.

What happened? She saw her rope lying on the ground, but what she didn’t notice was that the far end of the rope had hooked onto a gear loop on the back of her harness so that although she grabbed the brake side of the rope, it did nothing to stop her from falling as she had grabbed the rope far away from her belay device.
 
 This is a unique situation that I have never experienced and talking to other climbers none of us can recall this occurring. In this situation an auto-block would most likely have prevented the accident.

This is directed at all those who have written that rappel accidents don’t happen to them so they don’t need an autoblock and to those who think they can always control what happens if the careen into the wall while rappelling. The rappeler in this case eventually had her foot amputated and now has a prosthetic appendage.

As a Polish climber advised me years ago, “Accidents don’t exist before they happen.”

Rob.calm

So? I have to say, for myself, the answer to when not to use a backup for a rappel is, when you have enough knowledge and experience to make that judgement, and the confidence that you will nail it every time.

I simply don't have any of that.

I extend my device, and use a prussik hitch.

Same prussik I learned to ascend a rope with. Two prussiks, that's it for full body weight. A couple foot loops, which I suppose could also count if I somehow managed to escape both the top bits and didn't mind hanging upside down from my toes, lol! Point is, no device at all. Ascending and descending, double and single ropes. Fat gym ropes, and a skinnyish static cord. I've learned not only how many wraps, as a first guess to then test, but how each cord I own works (the orange one is stiffer, uses one less wrap).

Here is the rappelling question, though.

I understand what is being said, about death gripping that prussik knot and defeating it's ability to lock up. However? For me, I'm not just pushing the hitch down, that doesn't release the ATC from the brake position. I am also pushing it out, against the weight of the ropes. I find it hard to believe that both my hand and arm would "freeze" out in that unlock position. But, I also don't rocket down the rope. I'm cautiously letting out a bit at a time, and make my way down carefully. 

Yeah, I'm slow.

I make no apologies for being very greedy to stay alive.

Thanks as always for all the experience you folks lend to us noobs. It is soooo helpful to hear the banter, even! :-)

Best, Helen

aikibujin wrote:
What? That doesn't even make sense. I spent two posts, going into a third now, addressing this specific point.

I read it a third time. Don’t see it.

But maybe it is just that I am dense or obstinate  - could be.

Maybe it would help if I earnestly explained how I would have answered:  

Extending the device and weighting it with body weight means that your waist is further away from the anchor than if one had not extended. Most of the time this is of no consequence - e.g., a deeper knee bend. Once in a while it will make it awkward to do this bump test - assuming that is in your game - or extra steps are needed for it. But it is solvable.

Edit to add the original thing that started it all.

Ryan Pfleger wrote:
Another instance where they should remain attached to the anchor until they test their rap setup with bodyweight. Which brings up an interesting point... if you're extending your belay device, it becomes more difficult to put your weight on the rappel prior to disconnecting from the anchor.

RGold, I usually agree with most of what you say but I have to disagree on this. The same argument ("it will build complacency" or something thereabouts) boils down for risk compensation. If people think something is safer, they will take more risks. Highway safety is a useful analogy. The same argument was made for seatbelts, then for airbags, then for stability control, etc etc. The reality is that all that technology has made driving way safer than it used to be--traffic deaths in the US are much lower than the 60s or 70s, while miles driven per person are up dramatically. Only the scourge of other bad behavior (probably cell phones) in the last few years has changed the trend.

I'm an ER doc. People are always finding new and creative ways to hurt themselves (and new and creative things to put up their butts). And everyone makes mistakes. The more steps we can put between an unlikely mistake or insanely bad luck and a fatality, the better. An auto block and knotted rope ends are simple, easy ways to keep a mistake from leading to a dead or mangled climber.

Jimmy Downhillinthesnow wrote: I'm an ER doc. People are always finding new and creative ways to hurt themselves (and new and creative things to put up their butts). And everyone makes mistakes. The more steps we can put between an unlikely mistake or insanely bad luck and a fatality, the better. An auto block and knotted rope ends are simple, easy ways to keep a mistake from leading to a dead or mangled climber.

Hilarious. An old roommates was a trauma nurse and had several x-ray pictures of stuff people put up their butts. I remember an x ray of not 1, not 2, not even 5, but 14 little toy cars (like Hotwheels or matchbox cars). I'm genuinely curious as to what is going through somebody's head when they make these kind of decisions.