Definitions: Open Project vs. Closed Project

King Tut wrote:

Look, gonna put is as plain as I can:

In the USA the route "equipper/opener/cleaner" doesn't get credit for shit. Just like others have mentioned and it can take enormous effort to find, clean and equip routes but someone more gifted in finger power or just a douche can come after hearing about it through loose talk, and in 15 mins your effort is stolen forever instead of recognized by the community for the foreseeable future. See the history of Butterballs or Fish Crack or When I was a Young Girl I had me a Cowboy...and the douches involved.

If you've done enough, maybe it doesn't matter. But just maybe, it was going to be the culmination of a life's work exploring the unknown places and dreaming of finding those gems or seeing a line no one else could visualize and then putting in a shit ton of work to make it happen.

I don't do it for the community, I too do it for the art. You don't steal other people's art and claim it as your own.

People do get greedy and start too many projects, that is a separate topic and should be addressed by a local community. The local developers/climbers all know the status.

Oh gawd, here we go with the "my climbing is art" hooey.

Who deserves more respect? The guy who insists on climbing it first or the guy who opens up for everyone to to try?

Tradiban wrote:

Oh gawd, here we go with the "my climbing is art" hooey.

Who deserves more respect? The guy who insists on climbing it first or the guy who opens up for everyone to to try?

You wouldn't know the first thing about a real FA, now would you Tradi-Troll?

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

Its still a dick move. Its something that is not your effort, you did not create it. If I found out that someone had  done that I would have to hunt them down, get their information and enter it in the guide.  BTDT It's an integrity thing..  something that certain people seem to lack.

I think Nick reached his posting limit.( Something that kinda suks, can we get the number of post extended by request?). He has some strong thoughts, full-on experience and is one of the very good ones.

Talking about - Climbing-  by "fair means", with as little fixed pro, or no fixed pro. What everyone now calls "Trad"

 I know that many feel that they have some "claim" to a line for some time after the initial attempts/cleaning, and I certainly feel the sting of not getting the FFA, but one can never know for sure after you open a climb, if someone has jumped on it before you grabbed the top. I cn not see hanging on the 1st piece of protection to preserve the 'true'  FFA. for the developer, but i would never say a word about jumping on a tagged route.

 90% of the climbers today would have never ever made the cut back in the day  before indoor & sport existed,

 This

 was 1st led, ground up, using Rups, placed yo-yo style . Back then the nature of the game was bold, un-forgiving , dominated by social outcasts who had some very stiff (death-defying) hazing rituals. 

SANDBAGGING.

 (The whole idea of  "safe"  climbing was non-existent)

 It was dangerous and we liked it that way.

No Hanging was allowed. 

Now I just climb across, the easy way,

('down'-L to R) using  the big holds.

Tut!/ We are not all so lucky to have all of Calli as our canvas. But i assure you That both Nick & I have painted some property lines up steep rock

.(Click on the pix, Ravens crest at Sugar Hollow Danbury Ct, I know -: Looks Like Choss.)

 The horde will come some day.  I for one wish that it would start tomorrow.

 To that end I always post rando shots like this of  places where for the last 19 years  I and 1 or 2 others have  climbed.

 Maybe more have visited, Some Moe broke the crux undercling hold on a boulder problem pulling it off not while trying to send it-  pulling down? =  not using it as an undercling., 

And others made it to a mid cliff ledge and left garbage there. These same idjuts took apart a redundant Truck-stop anchor used the gear to set a death triangle, to try to top rope on the lower half of the overhgning cliff.  (short,by your standards)The lines.  here are fresh, not un-climbed just not scrubbed into gym-clean. I do not allow them to become follow the dots junk-shows

. Then there is this golf course/ town park, where this

 and a few other high quality   boulder sit. I have tried for years to send it from a sitting start, I do not count the standing start as a true ascent. . I finally got in touch with someone who sends V5 off the couch, He is coming down to give it a go, but we have just been whacked with full on crap;  spring snow/ice /rain. so it will not be in climbable conditions

. 

To take advantage of others work & vision is weak sauce, poor form and cheats another from the pride of recognition.

Maybe we should all try harder to bury pride and climb for other(better?) reasons?

(this seems to speak directly to the issue)

Special Counsel Robert S Mueller  said

 "nothing else matters" if you aren't honest"  -

 ."You can be smart, aggressive, articulate and indeed persuasive,

 but if you are not honest, your reputation will suffer, and once lost a good reputation can never, ever be regained,"

( Mueller said.)

"As the saying goes, if you have integrity, nothing else matters, and if you do not have integrity, nothing else matters".

Later in his address, Mueller said that patience was also an important part of life, and that it is "an acquired skill", he is still working on. . . (sic-he is 73 years old)

Christopher Smith wrote:

Screw watching the world burn. Do you know how much fun it is to burn things? Why do you think I like to go camping because I get to burn stuff.

certainly learning who I would never want to rope up with....

Ryan Swanson wrote:

Top rope counts right?

Depends how many lockers you used to build the anchor 

Am I the only one on here who had parents? Is a parent? Is ancient enough to remember "the little red hen"?

If I go to the trouble to bake a pie from scratch, you sure as shooting better not cut into it without asking me first.

The reward goes to the person who did the work. Sheesh. How hard is that??

Here, as in many places, the low hanging fruit is long gone. That means my friends who are developing, are going much farther afield than the crag that's fifteen minutes from town. They are humping crap in to places that aren't even on the climbing radar yet. Darn straight the FA goes to anyone they choose.

In town? One of those "developer" friends has been doing the totally thankless job of anchor replacement of decades old hardware. Guess who has the knowledge and equipment for that?

Best, OLH

King Tut wrote:

 See the history of Butterballs or Fish Crack...

While it has some legitimacy in sport where time, effort and money are involved, there is definitely none of this open/closed business in trad - everything is open to whoever wants to give a line a whirl and may the best man or woman send first. So if Hot Henry blew into town and snagged your latest project and girlfriend it was definitely too bad, but that's how it was and is (though that doesn't mean Henry couldn't be a dick, just ask Rob Taylor).

That is how it used to be. its a kinder genteler world out there now... 

Implied or claimed ownership of public property does not make it yours.

The "my climb is art" analogy is only valid in the same context as graffiti on a building.....you don't own the canvas, and have no right legal or otherwise to tell others they can't paint there, or paint on or over your work. 

The pie analogy is flawed much the same, if you own the ingredients, the pan and the oven, sure, "your pie" to cut. 

Sport climbing rules are made up as the game is played......

John Barritt wrote:

Implied or claimed ownership of public property does not make it yours.

The "my climb is art" analogy is only valid in the same context as graffiti on a building.....you don't own the canvas, and have no right legal or otherwise to tell others they can't paint there, or paint on or over your work. 

The pie analogy is flawed much the same, if you own the ingredients, the pan and the oven, sure, "your pie" to cut. 

Sport climbing rules are made up as the game is played......

Made up and tweaked in every town,city and state.

John Barritt wrote:

Implied or claimed ownership of public property does not make it yours.

The "my climb is art" analogy is only valid in the same context as graffiti on a building.....you don't own the canvas, and have no right legal or otherwise to tell others they can't paint there, or paint on or over your work. 

The pie analogy is flawed much the same, if you own the ingredients, the pan and the oven, sure, "your pie" to cut. 

Sport climbing rules are made up as the game is played......

In that case only the FA should climb the route. Everyone else is using bolts and an anchor the FA owns. 

So if the route is red tagged you can’t clip the bolts or the anchor. You don’t own the ingredients 

John Barritt wrote:

Implied or claimed ownership of public property does not make it yours.

The "my climb is art" analogy is only valid in the same context as graffiti on a building.....you don't own the canvas, and have no right legal or otherwise to tell others they can't paint there, or paint on or over your work. 

The pie analogy is flawed much the same, if you own the ingredients, the pan and the oven, sure, "your pie" to cut. 

Sport climbing rules are made up as the game is played......

If you baked the whole damn pie and someone stole that what would you call it? Public Property?

The point, is that (of course) no one owns the rock. But in the USA the FA gets credit for **the effort too** when they are given the FA...That is the problem.

We aren't talking about some line on a mountain, down ground up and onsight, obviously, but something that takes significant preparation to make it a rock climb.

In Europe the route opener gets the credit....

TBH, in the USA the guidebook author makes the call, despite "official rules" about such things. See "When I was a young girl I had me a Cowboy".

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

That is how it used to be. its a kinder genteler world out there now... 

Not in trad where lines just exist and don't 'belong' to anyone.

Healyje wrote:

Not in trad where lines just exist and don't 'belong' to anyone.

How about if it take hours to clean the cracks of dirt and veg?

they don't just exist much anymore in the north east and as soon as that first GU bolt goes in its got tape on the hanger, and we mostly know each other and mostly try not to be dicks.......

Bill Kirby wrote:

In that case only the FA should climb the route. Everyone else is using bolts and an anchor the FA owns. 

So if the route is red tagged you can’t clip the bolts or the anchor. You don’t own the ingredients 

No one "owns" public resources.

Read my post slower Bill, you "own" the paint when it's in the can. When you spray it on the wall (you don't own), it's not yours anymore.

Same with the pie, "owning" the ingredients does you no good if you don't "own" the pan or the oven.

As soon as the first bolt is placed it's public property......No matter what may be considered "current" ethics.

If you want the FA you better not snooze.

The next generation wants to retrobolt the classics, comfort bolt new lines (and ask for donations) reserve wall space with red tape and take a year to send......

Same people say, "Old school ethics are just stupid, get off my lawn" 

You can't have your pie and eat it too.... ;)

Good thing the bolt is not yours anymore once it is put in the wall... else you would get sued everytime someone got hurt on the route you setup.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

they don't just exist much anymore in the north east and as soon as that first GU bolt goes in its got tape on the hanger, and we mostly know each other and mostly try not to be dicks.......

If you're bolting it then it's a sport or mixed line and a different deal.

oh yes. Helayj with the all the crazy rules...  apparently kindness and courtesy not as important as his set of rules.......