Definitions: Open Project vs. Closed Project

I guess pro's are allowed to have multi-year projects, because none of the hardliners in this thread are going to steal them, the only ones who can snag them are other pros... and when another pro tries, or does, snag an FA they weren't invited to try by the bolter, the internet generally disapproves strongly.

But when it comes to a random 5.12a project a local guy had bolted, the rules change. Who cares that the guy put in money and effort into it! And nevermind that he likely has a full-time job, and maybe was hit by a pulley injury, or something... Nope, for him the clock is ticking. He better work that project every weekend, or else!

My take: red-tagged = closed. I don't care how long it's been red-tagged. I'm not going to run out of routes to climb anytime soon, so I do not need to climb this one red-tagged route.  As far as I'm concerned a project is open only if the bolter has personally told people that it is open, or someone close to the bolter knows that he has died, moved across the continent, stopped climbing, etc. And really, if the route has been bolted a while ago, and is still closed, and you have a burning desire to climb it, it isn't like you can't ask around, find out who bolted it, and then approach them with a question of whether it is O.K. to try it.

If someone climbs a red tagged route in the woods and nobody is around to see them do it, did it really happen?

T Roper wrote:

Do you ever look at the route database on this site? Check out all the boulder problem FAs. People love their FAs. 

I've also been offered the chance to get the FA on someone elses work more than once. some people give a shit and some dont.

 

I’ve seen money exchange hands to be the second name on the FA! The second!! The belay slave!

Jake wander wrote:

Oh I’m not complaining about having the route unavailable during the time the bolter projects it. I’m just saying I don’t understand what it proves to mark it off limits for months to get the FA. If it wasn’t marked off, someone else would get the FA so what is one proving? 

Like aid climbing for FA. If you have to red tape a route for a year because you keep failing it you are basically aid FAing it.

Glad ken was willing to discuss. I clearly never stated people shouldn’t hold routes. As mentioned multiple times, I was simply trying to understand the “why”. People don’t need to be offended. 

T Roper wrote:

9.5/10

These idiots believe anything! 

Jake wander wrote:

Glad ken was willing to discuss. I clearly never stated people shouldn’t hold routes. As mentioned multiple times, I was simply trying to understand the “why”. People don’t need to be offended. 

Yeah, no worries.  

The why is certainly interesting, but in the end it really doesn't matter.  It really should just be common curtesy to respect the wishes of the person who puts the time and effort into developing a route.  If you want to get a FA, go find a line and put in the time and you can have it.  As Lena said, there are plenty of routes out there that are ready for you to climb instead of poaching a red-tagged route. (Not necessarily directed at the you Jake, but at the you in general) 

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

A new route when done properly is a work of art, perhaps a masterpiece if the rock offers the correct line. what is wrong with offering the person who started the art piece the courtesy of being allowed to finish it.  this is simply basic human decency....

And as an artist, which is a great comparison btw, you also have to be ready for the folks that are going to shit on your work or you'll never enjoy what you do.

people are offended because you do not seem to get something that is simply the decent thing to do. FWIW  the only times I have left a project red tagged for longer than a month or so was when winter happened or the climb had a ridiculous approach and everyone In my circle  knew better than to believe me when I said it was only 25min and  only a tiny pit of poision ivy... keep in mind  that most of us work for a living and may only be able to get out once a week and then the significant other wants to go pleasure climbing on her one day off instead of belaying a ground up FA and dodgeing dirt and rocks...

It all comes down to spray, then, doesn't it? If you put in the time, money, blood, sweat, and tears to develop the route, you want the have first crack at being able to spray. I get that. Ken and Nick, you make compelling arguments in that regard. ("If I hadn't cleaned the route, you wouldn't even have had the opportunity to get on it.")

On the other hand, someone else shows up, unilaterally decides, "well, this has been red-tagged for long enough, the person who bolted it has had their chance", and they climb it. Then, they go off and spray about it, so they get credit for the FA.

What if someone climbs it, and doesn't say anything about it? They don't tell anyone, it doesn't get recorded in the guidebooks, etc. Call it a variation on the "tree falling in the forest" thought experiment. "If a climber claim-jumps your project, but doesn't spray about it, did it really happen?"

Tradiban wrote:

I guess I don't know. I don't have a little journal where I write everything down and quantify how much work I have put into routes so I can go back later and reminisce about how I'm such a great climbing humanitarian. 

How is it relevant anyway? Don't bother to convince me that red tagging isn't lame, try to convince the forum lurker who sees my argument with all its logic and says "Yea, that makes sense" and then looks at the other side and just sees...maniacs with nothing but a red herring.

Got it. You have never done a worthy FA.

Its still a dick move. Its something that is not your effort, you did not create it. If I found out that someone had  done that I would have to hunt them down, get their information and enter it in the guide.  BTDT It's an integrity thing..  something that certain people seem to lack.

Apparently, I missed a whole page of comments when I typed my reply. For instance, I see that Troper already made the "tree falls in the forest" analogy.

I want to clarify that I steer clear of red tags. Even if I were a strong enough climber to send something one of you guys was currently working (which I'm not), I'd leave it alone. I agree that if you cleaned the route, you get first crack at it. As Lena said, there's plenty of routes for me to climb, I can wait for that new one. I am honestly curious, though, if route developers would be offended by the idea of someone climbing it, and just not telling anyone. If you still get the credit in the guidebooks, do you care that someone else may have climbed it without your knowledge?

Look, gonna put is as plain as I can:

In the USA the route "equipper/opener/cleaner" doesn't get credit for shit. Just like others have mentioned and it can take enormous effort to find, clean and equip routes but someone more gifted in finger power or just a douche can come after hearing about it through loose talk, and in 15 mins your effort is stolen forever instead of recognized by the community for the foreseeable future. See the history of Butterballs or Fish Crack or When I was a Young Girl I had me a Cowboy...and the douches involved.

If you've done enough, maybe it doesn't matter. But just maybe, it was going to be the culmination of a life's work exploring the unknown places and dreaming of finding those gems or seeing a line no one else could visualize and then putting in a shit ton of work to make it happen.

I don't do it for the community, I too do it for the art. You don't steal other people's art and claim it as your own.

People do get greedy and start too many projects, that is a separate topic and should be addressed by a local community. The local developers/climbers all know the status.

King Tut wrote:

Look, gonna put is as plain as I can:

In the USA the route "equipper/opener/cleaner" doesn't get credit for shit. Just like others have mentioned and it can take enormous effort to find, clean and equip routes but someone more gifted in finger power or just a douche can come after hearing about it through loose talk, and in 15 mins your effort is stolen forever instead of recognized by the community for the foreseeable future. See the history of Butterballs or Fish Crack or When I was a Young Girl I had me a Cowboy...and the douches involved.

If you've done enough, maybe it doesn't matter. But just maybe, it was going to be the culmination of a life's work exploring the unknown places and dreaming of finding those gems or seeing a line no one else could visualize and then putting in a shit ton of work to make it happen.

I don't do it for the community, I too do it for the art. You don't steal other people's art and claim it as your own.

People do get greedy and start too many projects, that is a separate topic and should be addressed by a local community. The local developers/climbers all know the status.

Bearbreeder used to start replies the exact same way.just sayin...

@ Roper keep on saying if it floats ur boat. Matters not. Anybody that cared could figure out how wrong you are lol.

But it sounds like I can have a lot of fun trolling you with the same style.

Any more of your triggers you'd like to share? :)

(can you show me on the doll where Bearbreeder touched you?)

Ryan Swanson wrote

Just rap down and rub chalk on all the potential holds, and place a few tick marks by tiny foot nubbins.  You didn't steal the FA, and you got to torment a stranger.  Best of both worlds.

Andrew Krajnik wrote:

Apparently, I missed a whole page of comments when I typed my reply. For instance, I see that Troper already made the "tree falls in the forest" analogy.

I want to clarify that I steer clear of red tags. Even if I were a strong enough climber to send something one of you guys was currently working (which I'm not), I'd leave it alone. I agree that if you cleaned the route, you get first crack at it. As Lena said, there's plenty of routes for me to climb, I can wait for that new one. I am honestly curious, though, if route developers would be offended by the idea of someone climbing it, and just not telling anyone. If you still get the credit in the guidebooks, do you care that someone else may have climbed it without your knowledge?

Human nature being what it is, the guy who quietly climbed a red-tagged route, tells his buddy about it, and then his other buddy, who tells another buddy of his, who tells it to his friend who knows the developer, and bingo...

 Replace the word ego with satisfaction. 

this thread is full of trolls trying to push buttons.  Typical for several posters here.   I guess some people don't understand courtesy for route developers.

King Tut wrote:

Look, gonna put is as plain as I can:

........

I don't do it for the community, I too do it for the art. You don't steal other people's art and claim it as your own.

People do get greedy and start too many projects, that is a separate topic and should be addressed by a local community. The local developers/climbers all know the status.

Tut .... well said. The only thing I would change in your statement is this: “it’s my art.... I make art for my personal satisfaction... please don’t steal my art from me” - “please allow me to have a chance “

For the people who say they just don’t “get it” (the whole FA experience) I suspect they have never participated in one. 

If one appreciates climbing history, you can understand how competitive the first ascent of a mountain, the Matterhorn for example, was. The FA of the North Face of the Eiger had various parties, fighting for and dying for that honor. It became a matter of national pride. 

The Fred Beckey rope cutting story is a good example of what I think was the thinking at the time... “you cannot claim a Mountain as yours”....

Now please understand that Rock Climbing is not Mountain climbing. Rock Climbing has contrived “rules”. #1- you don’t need to go to the summit- to be successful. It became a sport that is all about climbing a prominent feature that is part of a larger mountain. Climbers did start to recognize and respect other climbers efforts to climb a new route. An example of this was the FA of the North West Face of Half Dome. 

Mark Powell told me this one time. “Robbins and his team had Half Dome, Warren and I wanted to one up him, so we went and picked the Nose”

Climbers jumping other people’s lines has always added to the rich history of our sport... Bob Kamps and Dave Rearick made history when they went and stole the FA of the Diamond from those Colorado boys. 

Hot Henry Barber traveled to the Valley and stole the FA of Butter Balls from the local crew. 

This sort of “stealing “ was mostly met with good natured name calling and ribbing, but not always. 

Now along comes this European invention... “sport climbing “ - it has lots of rules. For example... the TOP is now at the chains! The bolts get put in on aid! Extra bolts, just for safety, are OK! And most importantly... the whole idea of “The Red Point “ became the goal. If you know Sport Climbing History you know that most climbs were open to try... and when they were finally climbed with no hangs, no falls... a red dot was painted at the base to let others know. To be the climber who gets to paint the “red dot” made one famous.. at least to the locals. 

So if you wish to jump lines... have at it. Knock yourself out. 

When I start a new Sport Climb I always Top Rope it first and if I’m not a few hangs away from being able to send I abandon the whole thing to better climbers who will have a better understanding of how the bolting should go. I do not have any expectations of leaving the thing as a years long project- but please give me a shot at the RP. - at least till the dust has washed off from the drilling. 

End o rant