Definitions: Open Project vs. Closed Project

Right or wrong, I don’t understand how anyone can argue that it is not an ego thing

Jake wander wrote:

Right or wrong, I don’t understand how anyone can argue that it is not an ego thing

Of course its an ego thing, mostly, but if you spend days bolting and cleaning then simple respect for the effort means stay off.

This does not mean people should have dozens of "projects" unsent and expect people to be patient forever.

Tradiban wrote:

Did you red tag your trad routes? Why or why not?

Answer the question: Tell me more about how many days you spent prepping some project?

Damn!!!! Mofos be taking the bait round herr. Don’t you see!! Don’t you realize what he’s doing man! 

Creed Archibald wrote:

It looks something like this:

I was thinking more along these lines

King Tut wrote:

Answer the question: Tell me more about how many days you spent prepping some project?

I guess I don't know. I don't have a little journal where I write everything down and quantify how much work I have put into routes so I can go back later and reminisce about how I'm such a great climbing humanitarian. 

How is it relevant anyway? Don't bother to convince me that red tagging isn't lame, try to convince the forum lurker who sees my argument with all its logic and says "Yea, that makes sense" and then looks at the other side and just sees...maniacs with nothing but a red herring.

douch canoe. you will know them  by the things that they say.  when doing the ground up thing it gets scary sometimes, it gets terrifying ocasionaly. if it is steep and requires fixed gear you will most likely hang from a beak of a hook or perhaps a shitty tied off blade. cleaning on lead and climbing at your limit with a 36vot anchor strapped to your ass pretty much gaurentees that you will take hangs. I have taken a 30footer from a blown beak with the power drill and  all the FA Kit and then gone up and finished the route yet you would steal this route from me to stroke your own ego. you will know them by what they say...

Pnelson wrote:

Cool story, bro.  That actually got someone's leg broken a few years back at the NRG.

Yeah, that is exactly what I had in mind.
Full story here - http://rockandice.com/climbing-accidents/bolt-pulls-out-in-the-new-river-gorge/

The relevant bit:

He chose a sport route at the Rehab Crag that was red-tagged, indicating that the line had not yet been redpointed. But, having heard, incorrectly, that the line was an open project, he decided to try it. 

The climb was about 55 feet tall and followed a steep 5.12 slab for five bolts to a horizontal six- to eight-foot 5.10 roof. The roof had two bolts, with another just over the lip. These three bolts and the two-bolt anchor had in-situ quickdraws. When the ___ guide questioned Bates about his ability to climb the roof, Bates said that he would lower off a fixed quickdraw if he had trouble.

Bates set off and completed the slab, but fell at the first bolt in the roof. He hung for about five minutes, then decided to bail. As he lowered from the first bolt in the roof, he cleaned his draws off the lower bolts. At the second bolt off the ground, Bates swung onto a small ledge, unweighted the rope and unclipped the draw. When he re-weighted the rope, the bolt in the roof pulled out. Bates fell 10 feet to the ground and fractured his tibia.
<snip>
According to local ____ , the route was his project. When he bolted it on aid, the bolt in the roof didn’t drill properly and it didn’t tighten down. With his drill battery shot, _____  redtagged the line to keep people off it until he could return to replace the bolt.

I have taken a 30footer from a blown beak with the power drill and  all the FA Kit and then gone up and finished the route yet you would steal this route from me to stroke your own ego. you will know them by what they say...

Why do people want to be the first? Why does it matter? Especially on some random sports route. I can see wanting to get the FA of some mountain or something like halfdome (but cannot see blocking access to be first).

Why do people want to be able to say “yes! I cleaned that 90 ft route, put bolts on it, then prevented anyone from attempting to and made it to the top first over a couple months.” And who are they saying it to that cares? And if you’re not doing it to tell anyone, why does it matter if someone else grabbed the rock or clipped your bolts when you weren’t there? It doesn’t change your accomplishments in any way. Unless you want to tell people you got the FA. 

I’ve never thought of “stealing” someone’s FA, just trying to understand. 

amarius wrote:

Yeah, that is exactly what I had in mind.
Full story here - http://rockandice.com/climbing-accidents/bolt-pulls-out-in-the-new-river-gorge/

I'm just going to add (although it will probably get folks mad), that the climber who was injured was leading a large group of new climbers, and a crag that has a huge density of easy bolted climbs.  The red-tagged climb was a bit harder; somewhere in the 5.12 range.  Locals who were in the know, knew that this climb was red-tagged for safety reasons, and that the bolter had a reputation for sloppy bolting and leaving many projects half-done.

If I MAY conjecture a bit (and apologies if the victim is reading this), this is a classic *intermediate climber* move: 

-you're surrounded by noobs

-you're the self-designated "expert" of the group

-you might be a bit bored at having just put up a bunch of 5.6's up

-you've already demonstrated how awesome you are by rapping off the bolted anchors in front of all your noob friends

-there might be a girl in the group that you're trying to impress

Sooo, you jump on this red-tagged route armed with ego for "snagging" an FA and impressing your friends, but without any knowledge of bolting, safety, or the local vibe of the crag and the area.  Legs and butts get hurtzed.

Seriously, if you've been climbing more than a couple years you've definitely seen this type of group.  Most of the self-described experts on MP also have some overlap with this demographic-- they are no longer beginners, they're eager to share their newfound knowledge online and in real life, and they have no clue that there's a lot they don't yet know.  The sheer fact that we're having this discussion and reading this thread demonstrates this demographic, and that's why it's so important for us to call out beginning intermediates in this sort of context.

End of rant.

Jake wander wrote:

Why do people want to be the first? Why does it matter? Especially on some random sports route. I can see wanting to get the FA of some mountain or something like halfdome (but cannot see blocking access to be first).

Why do people want to be able to say “yes! I cleaned that 90 ft route, put bolts on it, then prevented anyone from attempting to and made it to the top first over a couple months.” And who are they saying it to that cares? And if you’re not doing it to tell anyone, why does it matter if someone else grabbed the rock or clipped your bolts when you weren’t there? It doesn’t change your accomplishments in any way. Unless you want to tell people you got the FA. 

I’ve never thought of “stealing” someone’s FA, just trying to understand. 

As has been said already in this thread, it's an ego thing, mostly as being recognized as the person who put in the work to open a new route.  If guidebooks printed who equiped a route instead of who was the FA, it might not be such a big deal, but that's not how it works here.  

When I put up easy routes, I generally don't really care that much about getting the FA, but when I find a really cool line, take the time to clean and bolt it, find out it's at or near my current limit, yes the ego jumps in and I want to be the one to do it first (as lame as that may be).  Maybe once you take the time to put up a few routes you will have a better understanding.

I do find it halarious that you say "then prevented anyone from attempting to and made it to the top first over a couple months."  You do realize that if the person hadn't bolted the line, it would most likely be closed to climbing for much longer than the couple of months that the developer takes to get the FA right.  Typically there are very few people who are willing to put in the time, effort, and money to develop routes, so the fact that you complain about having to wait a couple more months to climb a route that you didn't put any effort into developing, and that most likely, no one else would put any effort into developing seems a bit ironic to me.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

Viper , why don't you bolt you own routes........

Because I climb trad? Why would I bolt it?

Really need to start going and cutting bolts on any rope that I climb trad without using the bolts.

Ken Noyce wrote:

As has been said already in this thread, it's an ego thing, mostly as being recognized as the person who put in the work to open a new route.  If guidebooks printed who equiped a route instead of who was the FA, it might not be such a big deal, but that's not how it works here.  

When I put up easy routes, I generally don't really care that much about getting the FA, but when I find a really cool line, take the time to clean and bolt it, find out it's at or near my current limit, yes the ego jumps in and I want to be the one to do it first (as lame as that may be).  Maybe once you take the time to put up a few routes you will have a better understanding.

I do find it halarious that you say "then prevented anyone from attempting to and made it to the top first over a couple months."  You do realize that if the person hadn't bolted the line, it would most likely be closed to climbing for much longer than the couple of months that the developer takes to get the FA right.  Typically there are very few people who are willing to put in the time, effort, and money to develop routes, so the fact that you complain about having to wait a couple more months to climb a route that you didn't put any effort into developing, and that most likely, no one else would put any effort into developing seems a bit ironic to me.

Oh I’m not complaining about having the route unavailable during the time the bolter projects it. I’m just saying I don’t understand what it proves to mark it off limits for months to get the FA. If it wasn’t marked off, someone else would get the FA so what is one proving? 

I think alot of this discussion is very location dependent. Some crags are super busy, and someone may not know that a route is a project, thus ensuing a douche canoe discussion. 

However, some crags that are newer are usually only visited by the folks developing and a few others. In this case, I feel as though I can spend as long as I want working on a hard route that I bolted. I put in the work, I put in the money, I put in the time. I understand the, "we all own the rock" discussion, but the effort and motivation required to put up a route is ten fold compared to just simply "sending a project."

I have also offered up projects to friends that I can't climb. Theres a balance. If I know I can send, I'm okay with keep it closed for a while. If it's way out of my league, I'm more likely to let others have a go.

aparenty you mostly boulder because if you actually did Trad FA's eventually you would either have to place bolts on lead or give up on the line or climb yourself into a dead end and die.....  even Bacar placed bolts on lead... Ever climb in the needles of SD?? north Conway? Adirondacks? what makes you think that it was a 90ft route??? assumptions.. you will know them by what they say....

Jake wander wrote:

Oh I’m not complaining about having the route unavailable during the time the bolter projects it. I’m just saying I don’t understand what it proves to mark it off limits for months to get the FA. If it wasn’t marked off, someone else would get the FA so what is one proving? 

I thought I made this clear in my last post, it's not "proving" anything, it is just getting the recognition for the work that you do to put up a route (by having your name listed as the FA).  Obviously, unless you are Ondra, there are many climbers that are better than you, it isn't about being the "best" or the only person who could get up the route, it's about having people recognize the work that you do.  Obviously, that's kind of lame in and of itself, but it is nice to feel recognized.

A new route when done properly is a work of art, perhaps a masterpiece if the rock offers the correct line. what is wrong with offering the person who started the art piece the courtesy of being allowed to finish it.  this is simply basic human decency....

Jake wander wrote:

Why do people want to be the first? Why does it matter? Especially on some random sports route. I can see wanting to get the FA of some mountain or something like halfdome (but cannot see blocking access to be first).

Why do people want to be able to say “yes! I cleaned that 90 ft route, put bolts on it, then prevented anyone from attempting to and made it to the top first over a couple months.” And who are they saying it to that cares? And if you’re not doing it to tell anyone, why does it matter if someone else grabbed the rock or clipped your bolts when you weren’t there? It doesn’t change your accomplishments in any way. Unless you want to tell people you got the FA. 

I’ve never thought of “stealing” someone’s FA, just trying to understand. 

Do you ever look at the route database on this site? Check out all the boulder problem FAs. People love their FAs. 

I've also been offered the chance to get the FA on someone elses work more than once. some people give a shit and some dont.

Tradiban wrote:

I guess I don't know. I don't have a little journal where I write everything down and quantify how much work I have put into routes so I can go back later and reminisce about how I'm such a great climbing humanitarian. 

9.5/10

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

A new route when done properly is a work of art, perhaps a masterpiece if the rock offers the correct line. what is wrong with offering the person who started the art piece the courtesy of being allowed to finish it.  this is simply basic human decency....

I might save this to use for future discussions