Definitions: Open Project vs. Closed Project

True closed project is a route on private land where climbing it may result in you being shot for trespassing. Red tape on a newly bolted route on public land is a route that either has issues or the person wants to stop others from climbing it before him because he is weak.

Mods, can I change my username to "Royal Douche Canoe," or has some royal douche canoe already beaten me to it?

Such an ego driven attitude to be first, dontchathink?

If route developers we're really giving to the community I would imagine they wouldn't give two hoots as to who does the route first but it doesn't really seem to be the case, does it?

I say DEATH to red tagging, except for safety :)

I always go for anything I see red tape first... problem is generally what is red taped I can't climb. O well at least I make an attempt at it!

If you poach a closed project, you are no better than a draw thief

Mark E Dixon wrote:

If you poach closed project, you are no better than a draw thief

Ohhhh...I like the pontificating, explain why.

Ryan Swanson wrote:

If you get the FA but don't post up the route description on MP, did it really happen?

Do you ever really know if you got an FA? I mean I have scraped the moss and dirt off more than one boulder problem. Sent them and if you were to go back to them today they are now covered in moss again because noone regularly climbs them.

Tradiban wrote:

Such an ego driven attitude to be first, dontchathink?

If route developers we're really giving to the community I would imagine they wouldn't give two hoots as to who does the route first but it doesn't really seem to be the case, does it?

I say DEATH to red tagging, except for safety :)

Ok, I'll bite:

How many days and how much money have you spent to open a route?

If the tape on the first bolt is red common decency demands that you show some respect to who ever bolted the sucker. 

By the time the red tape has faded to white... it is pretty much open. 

Pretty simple, NO?

Guy Keesee wrote:

If the tape on the first bolt is red common decency demands that you show some respect to who ever bolted the sucker. 

By the time the red tape has faded to white... it is pretty much open. 

Pretty simple, NO?

Seen routes red taped for 3 years... at that point it is way over due... if you can climb it go for it. I give no more than maybe 6 months to get your sent in.

Viper , why don't you bolt you own routes........

King Tut wrote:

Ok, I'll bite:

How many days and how much money have you spent to open a route?

Can you imagine a trad climber or boulderer finding some rock in the forest, placing a "red tag" on the first hold and then declaring it off limits until they send it? Sounds pretty stupid eh? Don't these people also spend money and time on routes? Why in Sportlandia is there some kind of different standard? Because they own a power drill and spend some money directly on hardware? These same people also like to talk about how much they are giving back to the "community" and like to whine about how much money they spend on bolts like everybody owes them something.

The difference is that in FA trad climbing or bouldering, people don't feel like they have some need to be worshiped for their "hard work". They discover, clean, equip (if needed) and share with the community while asking for nothing in return. If you feel a need to be first to send something then just admit that the route is simply for your selfish ego-driven needs. Otherwise, finish bolting, make it safe and proclaim it "open" for the community to utilize. All I ask for is honesty.

They answer to your question is, plenty.

Tradiban wrote:

They answer to your question is, plenty.

Name some. No, name 'plenty' of them.

Bolted sport, not trad.

Regardless, poaching somebody's trad project is low, too.

Tell me more about all these Trad routes you've put up?

There is lots of cleaning and bolting on Trad routes. And until they go, they are projects like any other.

(not trying to start a fight. but having put up over a hundred pitches trad myself they are not all laying out there all clean and ready to go like people may think...)

Oh, TradyFan ....... Your ramblings always make me remember to comment less often on the MP forum.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Name some. No, name 'plenty' of them.

Bolted sport, not trad.

Regardless, poaching somebody's trad project is low, too.

I don't bolt sport routes bro. 

Tell me why in Sportlandia it's ok to claim the rock for the FA and why its not ego driven. I'm all ears.

King Tut wrote:

Tell me more about all these Trad routes you've put up?

There is lots of cleaning and bolting on Trad routes. And until they go, they are projects like any other.

(not trying to start a fight. but having put up over a hundred pitches trad myself they are not all laying out there all clean and ready to go like people may think...)

Did you red tag your trad routes? Why or why not?

ViperScale . wrote:

I always go for anything I see red tape first... problem is generally what is red taped I can't climb. O well at least I make an attempt at it!

Cool story, bro.  That actually got someone's leg broken a few years back at the NRG.

Tradiban wrote:

Can you imagine a trad climber or boulderer finding some rock in the forest, placing a "red tag" on the first hold and then declaring it off limits until they send it? Sounds pretty stupid eh? Don't these people also spend money and time on routes? Why in Sportlandia is there some kind of different standard? Because they own a power drill and spend some money directly on hardware? These same people also like to talk about how much they are giving back to the "community" and like to whine about how much money they spend on bolts like everybody owes them something.

The difference is that in FA trad climbing or bouldering, people don't feel like they have some need to be worshiped for their "hard work". They discover, clean, equip (if needed) and share with the community while asking for nothing in return. If you feel a need to be first to send something then just admit that the route is simply for your selfish ego-driven needs. Otherwise, finish bolting, make it safe and proclaim it "open" for the community to utilize. All I ask for is honesty.

They answer to your question is, plenty.

Yeah Beckey used to do it all the time.

With The Liberty Crack going up in 1964, and the Independent route in 1966, climbers continued to wonder about the possibility of other big wall routes on the amazing East Face of Liberty Bell.  Soon after the Liberty Crack route was first climbed, the first-ascent master, Fred Beckey, spotted a possible route right up the center of the face.  he staked his claim to the line by climbing up and fixing a rope on Pitch 1.

Alex Bertulis said, "Beckey had ropes hanging from various climbs all over the Northwest, 'staking his claim to the route' and other climbers were getting annoyed."  Hanging his rope should have kept other climbers off and laid his claim to the route, but that year Beckey hung ropes all over the Cascades and then went off to climb in Alaska for more than a month.

On their first attempt up the center of the face, Don McPherson an Ron Burgner cut Beckey's rope from the face.  At first, they were quiet about it, worried about the fallout, but word spread like lightning through the climbing community; everyone wondered who cut it.  Bertulis said the reaction was such surprise, "My God, this was Fred Becky's rope!"  But after the incident Fred Beckey never hung another rope.

- The Thin Red Line route history from SuperTopo's Washington Pass

I usually do the ground up thing,  if there is fixed gear I certainly do red tag it.  I try to get it done quickly but if it is the tail end of the season or  back country who knows. if its to hard for me I give the project to a deserving hard man or woman. certainly Not to a douch canoe...