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Definitions: Open Project vs. Closed Project
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What is an open project? What is a closed project? Who decides that the project is open/ closed? Is it the decision of the person who established the route to decide if the project is open, therefore making the FA up for competition? Or does open/ closed refer to route access, or even route safety? Or am I way off the mark? Been hearing these words for words for a while and would like to know what they mean. If it's something obvious, don't roast me (too bad). Thanks. |
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Ryan that's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks |
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A "project" is, generally, a climb that has not yet had a first ascent (or, at least, a clean FA). The difference between open/closed is that it is a generally accepted courtesy to let the route developer have time for a reasonable go at doing the FA before someone else does so, so a "closed project" would be one that is being worked on towards FA/red-point by the route developer (or, possibly, designated group of friends of the developer). An "open project" is one where the developer has said they don't intend to restrict who tries it -- anyone who wishes is allowed to go after the route, and attempt to get the FA. The courtesy comes basically from the idea that the person who puts the time and money into developing the route should get first shot at the glory. Sometimes the marking of a closed project (often a red ribbon tied to the first bolt) will also be used to indicate a route where development is not yet complete -- not all bolts installed, anchors built, cleaning done, etc. |
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All well and good, but my head is still stuck trying to get a clear picture of "royal douche canoe"... Best, OLH |
Old lady H wrote: Me too. This is the second time in 24 hours I've heard that term and I've never heard it in 36 years. What does it even mean? |
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mediocre wrote: Douche Canoe is a pejorative term used to describe someone in stronger and more colorful terms than just calling them a "douche" or "douchebag". "Royal" is a superlative meant to further enhance the insult. (As in a "royal pain in the ass".) Edit to add: I suppose it could also be taken literally as a water-going vessel, powered but one or more paddlers, owned by Her Majesty The Queen, and sponsored by Massengill. |
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A route can be developed as an open project, like Biographie (or something more recent and on this side of the pond: Mission Impossible). If the developer (instead of the FFA-ist) gets to name a sport route (and MP.com actually has a field to acknowledge the route developer), maybe we wouldn't worry about the distinct as much. |
mediocre wrote: It looks something like this:  |
amarius wrote: Yes, please note this! I've only used red tags to indicate incomplete ground-up projects, so you might turn the corner and find no more bolts, no anchor, loose rock, etc... |
Andrew Krajnik wrote: I guess I just never thought of the sponsorship POV..... but I think Creed has hit the nail on the head. Thanks for the clarification everyone. |
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I feel that the bolter should have a full season to work the project unless they come to the realization that it is over their head. It's easy enough to ask someone of they are still working a project. |
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If you are local enough to steal someones project you are local enough to figure out who's project it is. Unless of course you are a supreme douch canoe.,..... |
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Just to be clear, aren't red tags on the first bolt also used to "close" established routes? Perhaps that are deemed unsafe? Best, OLH |
Nick Goldsmith wrote: Uh, well now. I confess it is amusing to picture the commander in chief in a tight fitting sequined dress, ala Dianna Ross.... Singing as the canoe is zinging toward the waterfall. Full backup standing on the banks. Congressional, of course. Sigh. With full respect. Of course. Best, a very, very, tired, brainbashed, OLH |
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No red tags are not nessicairly an indication of danger though they are often an indication of an unfinished route |
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How important is it to you to get a redpoint of a hard route you just bolted? If I put up some hellacious roof route that I probably couldn't lead clean without multiple hangdog sessions, I would be delighted if someone would lead that and give me comments on how it was. I guess other people are bothered by that. That seems stupid to me, as developing the route is not about pissing on territory. It's about creating something fun for all. Ryan definitely has the right outlook. If you can't finish the route after a few months, dibs are off. Go develop something you can complete in a reasonable length of time. |
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that is kind of short sighted INMOP though I generally get bored quickly and give up on stuff that is too hard for me. I do however expect the coutesy of asking me if I am done with the project. Anything less is a royal douch canoe move.... |
Ryan Swanson wrote: In the case of an unsafe route, that doesn’t mean the remaining bolts need chopped. It might mean that someone is planning to return to fix the missing or bad hardware to return the route to being properly equipped, but at the time that they placed the red tag they didn’t have the hardware or time to get it done |
Tim Stich wrote: I could not disagree more. It is as you say, "about creating something fun for all", but that definitely does not mean it's also not about getting to reap the rewards of bolting something at your limit or above it. I have bolted dozens of climbs below my limit where I didn't care too much about whether I was the first one up the route with a clean lead, but there have been a handful of difficult (for me) or aesthetic climbs where I put A LOT of work in cleaning, bolting, moving bolts, adding permadraws, spending a lot on gas just to spend the day hanging in a harness on a fixed line, etc. I damn sure wanted to be the first one to climb those routes. Some took me a day. Some took me months. No one is putting some BS statute of limitations on how long you can red tag something. I can get behind thinking over a certain amount of time isn't an ideal scenario, but if you're not sure at least do your best to find out what the story is before poaching an FA. |
David Gibbs wrote: Well put |
