Definitions: Open Project vs. Closed Project

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

oh yes. Helayj with the all the crazy rules...  apparently kindness and courtesy not as important as his set of rules.......

There are no sport rules in trad. If you can't get up a trad line then don't be a dick and have the decency, courtesy, and kindness to be happy that someone else, anyone else, is giving it a go.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:

oh yes. Helayj with the all the crazy rules...  apparently kindness and courtesy not as important as his set of rules.......

Healy is right this time around, it is a very untenable position to claim a natural rock feature as "yours."  

If you were to put up a trad FA of your own and don't want someone to poach it, you would be wise to find a remote place to do so and don't share approach beta.

Though I disagree on "mixed", either a climb is sport or trad.  Leave the word "mixed" to describe real mixed climbing, you know, climbing with ice tools and crampons.

John Barritt wrote:

No one "owns" public resources.

Read my post slower Bill, you "own" the paint when it's in the can. When you spray it on the wall (you don't own), it's not yours anymore.

Same with the pie, "owning" the ingredients does you no good if you don't "own" the pan or the oven.

As soon as the first bolt is placed it's public property......No matter what may be considered "current" ethics.

If you want the FA you better not snooze.

The next generation wants to retrobolt the classics, comfort bolt new lines (and ask for donations) reserve wall space with red tape and take a year to send......

Same people say, "Old school ethics are just stupid, get off my lawn" 

You can't have your pie and eat it too.... ;)

  So you’re saying it’s OK to snake the FA because some millennial sporto will come along and claim it anyway? Sounds solid. 

jg fox wrote:

 Though I disagree on "mixed", either a climb is sport or trad.  Leave the word "mixed" to describe real mixed climbing, you know, climbing with ice tools and crampons.

Mixed climbing is neither 

Healy. I totally agree that pure gear climbs with no fixed bolts are open projects. If you need to call it mixed fine so be it but once a bolt goes in let that person be responsibl for the creation.

jg fox wrote:

Though I disagree on "mixed", either a climb is sport or trad.  Leave the word "mixed" to describe real mixed climbing, you know, climbing with ice tools and crampons.

Once bolting is involved there's an investment and that should potentially be respected in trad - if the fixed pro is really necessary.

Healyje wrote:

Once bolting is involved there's an investment and that should potentially be respected in trad - if the fixed pro is really necessary.

Is the trad route getting sieged then? Was the bolt placed on lead from a stance? 

I would call this a case by case situation that depends on an area.  I met someone once from Carbondale that puts up FAs in the Gunnison.  He'll aid the route and place all the necessary bolts and later he comes back and does the first FFA.  The Gunnison is a pretty wild place so it isn't like the climb would get discovered the very next day. That probably wouldn't go far at a more pedestrian trad crag.

ViperScale . wrote:

Screw watching the world burn. Do you know how much fun it is to burn things? Why do you think I like to go camping because I get to burn stuff.

Ohh trust me I'm in the same boat....just love excuses to use that meme lol.

I'd love to see an actual route developer post up saying they don't care if someone gets the FA on a route they have taken the time to clean and equip before they have a reasonable timeframe to get the FA.

splitclimber wrote:

I'd love to see an actual route developer post up saying they don't care if someone gets the FA on a route they have taken the time to clean and equip before they have a reasonable timeframe to get the FA.

ikr? not gonna happen. All these posts about how its no big deal "public property" is by people that have never cleaned and prepped anything worthy in their lives.

King Tut wrote:

You wouldn't know the first thing about a real FA, now would you Tradi-Troll?

Bearbreeder would have said the same thing for sure, its almost uncanny with the name calling/last word. Having been around this site for too long I'm pretty darn sure you are way off base with this accusation.

King Tut wrote:

ikr? not gonna happen. All these posts about how its no big deal "public property" is by people that have never cleaned and prepped anything worthy in their lives.

There also losing any chance of having a pie baked for them.

:-)

Bill Kirby wrote:

  So you’re saying it’s OK to snake the FA because some millennial sporto will come along and claim it anyway? Sounds solid. 

Didn't say that at all. I simply chose to point out that the notion of legitimate claim of ownership to a public resource by right of drilling a bolt is as foolish as the notion of someone "snakeing" a park bench after you wiped the bird poo off it.

You put in the work, you own it until you "gift" it to someone else by the current ethics then.

splitclimber wrote:

I'd love to see an actual route developer post up saying they don't care if someone gets the FA on a route they have taken the time to clean and equip before they have a reasonable timeframe to get the FA.

Don’t count on it, they are too busy climbing.

T Roper wrote:

Bearbreeder would have said the same thing for sure, its almost uncanny with the name calling/last word. Having been around this site for too long I'm pretty darn sure you are way off base with this accusation.

Tradi-troll has entire threads devoted to his admitted trolling. If you don't like my nickname for him then I suggest you worry about things that actually concern you?

As far as Nick (*Tradiban) putting up some kind of worthy FA, well he can post it/them for our perusal and judgment or he can troll another thread?

meh.

I don't know where ya'll live, but round here we got enough rock that we ain't gotta steal other people's FAs. 

Fixing to get yo self one of them FAs? Walk yo a** five feet from my project and put up your own damn route!

Kemper Brightman wrote:

I don't know where ya'll live, but round here we got enough rock that we ain't gotta steal other people's FAs. 

Fixing to get yo self one of them FAs? Walk yo a** five feet from my project and put up your own damn route!

Would be nice to live somewhere like that...

King Tut wrote:

Tradi-troll has entire threads devoted to his admitted trolling. If you don't like my nickname for him then I suggest you worry about things that actually concern you?

As far as Nick putting up some kind of worthy FA, well he can post it/them for our perusal and judgment or he can troll another thread?

meh.

so next you say "you probably dont even climb" and you just used the "show me yours and I'll show you mine". Bearbreeder used to throw tantrums when someone disagreed with him.

maybe just relax and dont take everything so seriously or focus on Sloan, your arch enemy and main reason you came to this site.

Kemper Brightman wrote:

I don't know where ya'll live, but round here we got enough rock that we ain't gotta steal other people's FAs. 

Fixing to get yo self one of them FAs? Walk yo a** five feet from my project and put up your own damn route!

Around here they get wind of a new crag and all the gym-bots go out and buy drills and bolt over previously bolted climbs because they dont have as many bolts as the gym. Not kidding. 

T Roper wrote:

Around here they get wind of a new crag and all the gym-bots go out and buy drills and bolt over previously bolted climbs because they dont have as many bolts as the gym. Not kidding. 

There is no honor among theives, gym-bots.......I like it... ;) I say gym-roids quite often, but I'd never say it on here.

Route snakeing, comfort bolting (and whatever the next ethical dilemma yet to come), will be hard to stop in climbing's new era.

Welcome to the future,