New and Experienced Climbers over 50 #39

Family and friends who have served and been injured or killed in wars, or family/friends whose right to marry someone they love, or the impacts of an attempt (however weak) to change my healthcare costs…

Yeah, politics has actually affected my life in the last 50 years.

Li Huwrote:

Hahaha! In the face is fine, we get it all the time from layers of managers and lawyers.

“Engineers are like mushrooms”

(For those whom don’t know, it means we’re kept in the dark and fed horse shite)  

And Happy Birthday, Lori!

Careful, Li Hu, you've skipped the third part of the "mushroom" analogy.

If the engineers/mushrooms get too tall they get cut off and canned.

What do they use for birth control?

Happy Birthday Lorie. Daniel. I just got a notice from my state that next year our health care premiums go up due to federal cuts. My taxes also keep going up while billionaires taxes go down. I can no longer safely travel across the Canadian border which is only about 30 miles from my house because of the current administrations insane policy. The cost of almost everything has skyrocketed due to the stupid tarrif/taxes. Politics affects most aspects of our day to day life like it or not. 

When we were kids and did not have to worry about this stuff. just after the FA of Perrigan Dihedral... 

dragonswrote:

Dan, As a woman, access to reproductive care (including birth control, and being able to get an abortion if I wanted to) is something that has directly impacted my life in the last 50 years. I also just generally care about how other people are treated, it matters to me.

It sounds like you've had no such cares. In which case, I think you're very lucky not to have had your life impacted by politics.

This is a good, practical response, dragons, thanks.

People may think that they're avoiding the turmoil of politics but they really aren't - there's no way to stay aloof. Leon Trotsky's comment about war applies with equal measure to politics:

"You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.”  

Also, as a side note dragons, thank you for your response to my "where" question in the earlier thread. I have to admit though that your comment to the effect that your climbing ticks are "public" surprised me some. I would never have thought to look into that category about a climber on this site (but it sounds like it wouldn't be unusual to do so?).

One of my earliest memories was trying to understand what death meant and why I’d never see my friend again. He was drafted and sent to Viet Nam at 18 years old and died there. Years later, I did some research and learned that every draft from World War 1 to Viet Nam was under a democrat president with support by republicans. I remember gas rationing and diplomats held hostage during the Carter years. I remember the ridiculous war on drugs beginning during the Reagan years. I remember 9/11 and the useless wars and the horrible “patriot” act. I remember Obama’s hope and change, but he kept the wars going, droned American teenagers in Africa, and re-authorized the “patriot” act. Now we have the current debacle and division. So yeah, I stand by my assessment that politics, on both sides, is rotten to the core. While all of these events had an effect regarding my world view, I chose to live my life and work on what I could control, which I have realized are solely my own actions.

Helen, I’ve lived on the margins for my entire life, so a few pennies on either side of my balance sheet, makes little difference to me. I’m with you about most laws being merely tolerated at best. I believe Thomas Jefferson has a great quote about this.

Dragons, I’m sorry that you were negatively impacted by ridiculous government overreach. I believe that the most basic role of a government is to protect individual rights. I’m also in favor of holding public lands in trust, and basic environmental protections.  

Nick, my insurance has increased every year since the inception of the “affordable care act”, in fact, last year it become so egregiously expensive, that as a healthy  55 year old, I decided that it is no longer worth it for me. And I remember when it was the millionaires not paying their share being the slogan. Now that all of the politicians are millionaires, the slogan changes to blame the billionaires. Congress can levy taxes and adjust rates, they simply don’t because they are all bought and paid for.

Brad, when has the common man’s opinion ever mattered one iota when it comes to governments starting wars? If war ever comes to the eastern sierra, I’ll give my all to defend what I love. 

Alan, I pay for my current healthcare needs, if I need major care, I’m able to secure insurance if necessary. Do you believe there is something noble about contributing to a broken system? Why is it that healthcare costs continually rise, yet the average American is unhealthy, dependent on medication, and life expectancy continues to decrease? Could it be due to lobbying from Pharma/Insurance and corrupt and ineffectual politicians refusing to take constructive action? I’m able to live where I do because I have chosen a minimalist existence. I would speculate that I consume less food, and use less carbon based energy than the vast majority of Americans. I’m quite content with my surroundings and I used up much of my wanderlust in my younger years. I could share what my annual COL is but I doubt anyone here would believe me.  As far as humans being “pack animals” please realize that some humans function better in large packs but other humans function better in small packs. As a final thought, you seem to ignore the examples of political corruption, rampant on both sides, as possibly being at least partially responsible for the current situation. Do you seriously believe that “your side” is without fault? Until the strict partisanship ends and legitimate political choices are available, I see little hope for positive change.

A human that I’ve admired is HD Thoreau, his essay “Civil Disobedience” and his writing about his time at Walden Pond has always resonated for me. I’ve lived much of my life as a silent form of civil disobedience and believe that is the best I can do as an individual. I’m simply not comfortable or qualified to tell anyone how to live or use collective force (voting),to do this in my stead.  Maybe if it was more common to see people as autonomous individuals rather than members of one team or the other, our world would be a more peaceful and harmonious place.

I realize on some minor level everything that I’ve written about has impacted my life, I choose to view this all as just a bump in the road and not what defines my happiness.

Edit: I apologize for the need for edits and replies on this specific post. MP’s three post limit makes replying to everyone a challenging proposition. I appreciate everyone’s comments and thanks to  everyone for considering my unique perspective. There is much more to my story, as I’m sure there is to your’s too, that has shaped my worldview, and sharing ideas is really the only way to finding common ground. I hope that everyone has a great weekend. Get outside! DS

Daniel Shivelywrote:

Brad, when has the common man’s opinion ever mattered one iota when it comes to governments starting wars? If war ever comes to the eastern sierra, I’ll give my all to defend what I love. 

Here’s one example, Daniel: A good argument can be made that the United States did not enter World War Two in late 1940 (a year before Pearl Harbor) because of the “common man’s” opinion. Franklin Roosevelt was very attuned to public opinion and although he saw what he thought the U.S. should do, he knew that our citizens did not want to go there. Obviously we later entered that war when we were attacked (Japan) and war was declared upon us (Germany).

But I respect your greater suggestion, which I think is that normal people have very, very little effect on the great events of the world. And so why live a life of stress and angst when you can’t do anything about it?

I think I get it.

But I firmly believe that although you may try to avoid the great events, they will not avoid you. They will affect you whether you want them to or not and whether you even know about them or not. That was the idea behind the quote.

Beyond that, I do think that someone who is involved has some slight effect on events. It sounds like maybe you and I differ on this? Even if my view is correct though, I ponder every day whether having a very, very slight effect is worth the angst of staying involved and aware.

We all answer this separately. So far my answer has remained a firm "yes."

^^^

In The Lost World on Sonora Pass Highway.

Spray ‘til Dark  5.10a **

a.    Page(s) the route would appear on:  It would appear on page 346.

b.    Description:  This all-bolt route climbs a series of shallow corners to aretes starting 30 feet around and down from the bottom of the deep cleft.  Begin just left from the left end of a long, flat ledge (the ledge is actually the top of a big and wide, but-not-deep block).  Seven bolts protect 60 feet of climbing to a two-bolt anchor above the left side of a spacious ledge.

c.    Descent:  Lower or rappel 60 feet or continue to the top of the cliff on Spray Past Dark (listed next).

d.    Gear:  Seven bolts.

e.     FA Party/Date:  Brad Young, Micha Miller, Tom Addison, October 29, 2022.

f.     Source(s):  Self, part of the first ascent party.

g.  Other: Like several routes in The Lost World, Spray 'til Dark climbs rock that is under an early-season waterfall.  This results in very high quality rock which is quite clean in places.  However, each winter water flow leaves gunk on edges and in cracks.  Consider bringing a brush for this and similar routes.

Just back to this thread after time away--climbing!!!

First, happy birthday Lori, and still happy birthday to you Helen, whenever that day is!!!

Daniel, while I was 'off' several others answered with great examples of real impacts in their lives, and some that likely impact you, whether you acknowledge it or not. You wrote that you are in the Eastern Sierra--wonderful place, so I don't know how much the attack on the Roadless Rule ( discussed in a contemporaneous thread) will impact you ( I know there are many roads penetrating those mountains) but it might, especially if you travel.
You also mentioned your health insurance premiums increasing annually to the point that you have now dropped your insurance. That is very unfortunate, but those premiums have been rising because the costs of providing health care have been rising even faster---something you will discover when ( not 'if') you need significant health care to be provided---and when you can't pay, even without insurance, the rest of us will end up paying for your care through further increases in costs.

It is wonderful for you, that you have been able to choose to live an autonomous life in a beautiful area, but the reality is that for many reasons the vast majority of us can't live such a life. And, if many did do so, I think society ( except it wouldn't be 'society') would be even more messed up than it currently is---everyone out for themselves. Evolutionarily humans are 'pack animals' and that still very much influences our fate.

Brad, where is that picture in your most recent post---looks like a wonderful climb!!!!

Thanks for adding that info Brad. Looks like an excellent route, but I admit to being a bit confused. It has been my understanding that the rock up on Sonora ( never climbed there but drove through in the dark one early season when Tioga was closed!!!) is granite, but your picture shows some very 'limestone-looking' tufa formations!!!!

As an aside, Tom Addison is an old friend and former MA climber--it is indeed a small world!!!!

Thank you so much for the birthday wishes. I decided to take the first day of my 73rd spin around the sun doing things I love. So the first thing I did was to take a long hike through Steve Canyon. We had torrential rain last night and everything was sparkly clean.

I glanced up to see the sun hitting this stretch of rock perfectly. I want to climb it someday even though there’s not a lot of hope for that, but one can dream.  I could give up Sidewinder for this.  

Next— a friend sent me a couple of pics of a climber on this route I have long wanted to climb, Skinny Dip.  It does seem like it would be very cool if a “woman of a certain age“ tried to worm through this small hole. Fortunately, I believe I don’t even have to ask because it would be a firm no from Bob. But how about just stemming up the interior?

How cool is that?  

I believe a sick mind saw and created this route. Referring to the crack climb up and center-Jumping Jack Flash. I’ve seen people suffer here. Maybe fossil would love it, but not me.  

lastly, who could fail to admire the top of the Decompensator?  It blows my mind to think I was actually up there several times.  

Me, OMG.

Then, we were off for a birthday lunch at a favorite Peruvian restaurant down the hill. Tony tried a ridiculous pork sandwich which was three times what anyone could eat, but it was fun trying. I had a quarter chicken and fried plantain and we shared some empanadas. Have never had beef heart, but that seems to be one of their specialties along with short ribs so maybe next time.

—-

I had a favorite grand dog, Gidget, who was rescued just six hours shy of euthanasia. She was sick and matted and ugly.  I was against rescuing her. My daughter went ahead and paid the $450 veterinary bill to have all of her teeth removed. Then took her to a groomer where she got all fluffed up with little green bows in her hair. Once all the sedation wore off and her mouth healed, she turned into the most delightful pet I have ever had . She had been raised almost exclusively on McDonald’s by her owners, I was told, and was obese but anytime we drove past a Golden Arches she would go crazy in the car. For the six years I had her she lost her mind any time anyone brought McDonald’s into the house. She wanted some so badly—and I never once let it happen.  When she got sick and was dying, I relented and brought her a big Mac. I figured if there was any hope she would raise her head and try to eat it. She did actually perk up for a fleeting moment, sniffed the burger, and then laid her head back down. I took her in that day.

So humorously I feel a little like that when I’m out in the park and suddenly perk up when I see a beautiful route. I know I’m still alive. I dread the day it doesn’t cause a stir.

Happy birthday, Lori. It sounds like a very good one.

James Harvey wrote:

“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary.”

HL Mencken..

This guy understood.

HL Mencken wrote your quote in 1920 just after ww1 ended. It’s interesting to consider, that at least in his opinion, politics seemed to be much the same then as it is now. 

Brad Youngwrote:

Here’s one example, Daniel: A good argument can be made that the United States did not enter World War Two in late 1940 (a year before Pearl Harbor) because of the “common man’s” opinion. Franklin Roosevelt was very attuned to public opinion and although he saw what he thought the U.S. should do, he knew that our citizens did not want to go there. Obviously we later entered that war when we were attacked (Japan) and war was declared upon us (Germany).

But I respect your greater suggestion, which I think is that normal people have very, very little effect on the great events of the world. And so why live a life of stress and angst when you can’t do anything about it?

I think I get it.

But I firmly believe that although you may try to avoid the great events, they will not avoid you. They will affect you whether you want them to or not and whether you even know about them or not. That was the idea behind the quote.

Beyond that, I do think that someone who is involved has some slight effect on events. It sounds like maybe you and I differ on this? Even if my view is correct though, I ponder every day whether having a very, very slight effect is worth the angst of staying involved and aware.

We all answer this separately. So far my answer has remained a firm "yes."

^^^

In The Lost World on Sonora Pass Highway.

Spray ‘til Dark  5.10a **

a.    Page(s) the route would appear on:  It would appear on page 346.

b.    Description:  This all-bolt route climbs a series of shallow corners to aretes starting 30 feet around and down from the bottom of the deep cleft.  Begin just left from the left end of a long, flat ledge (the ledge is actually the top of a big and wide, but-not-deep block).  Seven bolts protect 60 feet of climbing to a two-bolt anchor above the left side of a spacious ledge.

c.    Descent:  Lower or rappel 60 feet or continue to the top of the cliff on Spray Past Dark (listed next).

d.    Gear:  Seven bolts.

e.     FA Party/Date:  Brad Young, Micha Miller, Tom Addison, October 29, 2022.

f.     Source(s):  Self, part of the first ascent party.

g.  Other: Like several routes in The Lost World, Spray 'til Dark climbs rock that is under an early-season waterfall.  This results in very high quality rock which is quite clean in places.  However, each winter water flow leaves gunk on edges and in cracks.  Consider bringing a brush for this and similar routes.

Brad, I hear you and can relate to your idea about the “butterfly” effect.  It’s interesting to think about how our thoughts and actions can influence everything around us. I think my points may have been better received if I was able to elaborate on how while politics do effect us, it’s possible to minimize our angst and resentment for our fellow Americans.

I realize that avoiding great events is usually not possible.  I try to be as prepared physically, emotionally, own and have proficiency with basic tools, as possible. I believe that some forethought and planning (even if never needed) can be a valuable method to avoiding unnecessary anxiety. 

I’m fully aware and it appears that I’m involved too.  It’s our individual approach that seems to differ on some levels.

Thanks for your thought provoking comments. 

* it’s difficult to work around MP’s three post limit so I’ll reply to this post if this conversation continues to evolve. I’m happy to let it go at this point though.

Alan Rubinwrote:

Thanks for adding that info Brad. Looks like an excellent route, but I admit to being a bit confused. It has been my understanding that the rock up on Sonora ( never climbed there but drove through in the dark one early season when Tioga was closed!!!) is granite, but your picture shows some very 'limestone-looking' tufa formations!!!!

As an aside, Tom Addison is an old friend and former MA climber--it is indeed a small world!!!!

Thanks Daniel for the above.

Alan, that's granite alright. The Lost World is located at between 5,000 and 6,000 feet elevation. The highway above it is closed because of snow for five months or so each year. Once the snow starts to melt and we can access the high country, streams of meltwater flow. This route and others in The Lost World are in an early-season waterfall. The water stains the rock black and changes its surface some.

And by the way, we bolted this route (instead of using natural pro) because what might appear to be cracks and corners in the photo are actually very shallow and flared and would not take gear.

Pretty cool to hear that you know Tom. He's not only an excellent climber and route developer, he's just one of the nicest people you'll ever meet. Stronger than hell too (he is still leading 5.13 in his early 60s - of the 35 or 40 first ascents I've done with him, I've been able to redpoint four or five).

Here's a shot of The Lost World's bottom half. The contrast is way too stark, but it gives an idea of what a gorgeous climbing venue it is (those are full size fir trees down at the bottom):

Daniel Shivelywrote:

...

Nick, my insurance has increased every year since the inception of the “affordable care act”, in fact, last year it become so egregiously expensive, that as a healthy  55 year old, I decided that it is no longer worth it for me. And I remember when it was the millionaires not paying their share being the slogan. Now that all of the politicians are millionaires, the slogan changes to blame the billionaires. Congress can levy taxes and adjust rates, they simply don’t because they are all bought and paid for.

...

Alan, I pay for my current healthcare needs, if I need major care, I’m able to secure insurance if necessary.

Daniel,

Health insurance is a huge concern for me. My family was constantly on edge because my father, the breadwinner, had a heart defect. He was born before antibiotics were discovered. As a small child, he managed to get a disease which damaged his heart, leading to a lifetime of health issues. This was a pre-existing condition that could have caused him to lose his health insurance had he moved from the job that he found years later. In my rough understanding, as a child, we were constantly worried about him losing his job because of this pre-existing condition problem, with the fear that he might actually die if he lost his health insurance. This impacted me in a big way and probably led to other problems in my family, aside from general childhood anxiety.

So for me, the ACA was a huge win because it got rid of pre-existing conditions. I'm 100% with you in the sense that the ACA is insufficient and a minimal, weak change from the way things were. However, I still think that the health insurance we get now is far better than it used to be. (I'm in favor of single-payer healthcare.)

You said "if I need major care, I’m able to secure insurance if necessary". Please explain? It sounds like you're saying you don't have insurance, and that you'll get insurance after the fact, should you need it. I don't know how that would work. E.g. suppose you have a catastrophic fall while climbing and are in the hospital for months. With no insurance, what is your plan?

Personally, I have a high-deductible health insurance policy (something like $8K deductible). Currently, I make a low income, so most of my health insurance premiums are covered due to the ACA. I've never hit the deductible, but I have had to pay thousands of dollars for actual healthcare (not premiums, but medical bills) each year. It's to the point where I rarely visit a doctor unless I decide it's too big a risk not to. That's how I deal with the current "healthcare" situation in the US. However, I have no illusions that my comparatively healthy lifestyle can prevent me from suffering a really bad health problem that might bankrupt or kill me.

Why is it that healthcare costs continually rise, yet the average American is unhealthy, dependent on medication, and life expectancy continues to decrease?

This is a perfectly valid question. I understand those that want to just check out and not try to push for change, since it seems pointless. I also feel super grateful to those who keep fighting for change. But you do you. I'm not trying to convince you to behave in any different way, just explain why some people might.

Health insurance costs are at great risk of dramatically increasing in the coming year…due to politics.

apogeewrote:

Health insurance costs are at great risk of dramatically increasing in the coming year…due to politics.

Policy. Politics we may be able to do something about.   

Brad Youngwrote:

...
Also, as a side note dragons, thank you for your response to my "where" question in the earlier thread. I have to admit though that your comment to the effect that your climbing ticks are "public" surprised me some. I would never have thought to look into that category about a climber on this site (but it sounds like it wouldn't be unusual to do so?).

If someone posts a climbing pic and I'm curious about where it might be from, I'll usually check their ticks before asking. Of course, not everyone uses the tick list.

James Harvey wrote:

Okay, these sorts of postings should be illegal on here ....without the WHERE, lol!

Holy crap, how did this go by so fast??? (Member since Aug 24, 2015) And, I kinda missed this "anniversary" of sorts. My very earliest ticks were put in later, from the climbing spreadsheet my son kept back then. My first climbing partner, mom learned literally right behind him. He was working toward getting on the high angle rescue team, with our local SAR unit, so my learning curve was a wee bit unusual.

My very first "climbing" experience?

Seeing him practicing, from our garage rafters one hot late summer, early fall day.

Me: that looks like fun!

Son: wanna try?

Me: sure!!

I was hooked. Instantly and totally, although it yook awhile to realize it. That day, is when I discovered I was a CLIMBER, not just someone who picked up an interesting new pastime. CLIMBER. No choice.

That very first thing I learned?

The utter beauty and simplicity of a tied friction hitch and a rope.

Ascending. With  hand tied Purcell prussic goot loops and a shorter chest loop (sorry if I blew the name or spelling). 

My very first pieces of climbing gear were my own set, tied for my height. Followed by an ATC and carabiner. 

The next things up to learn from him were all unusual, also. Actual hands in rock was kinda down the list, after things most people NEVER learn, lol!

First climbing gear. Leg loop my son tied for me. My ATC, now retired. First time hands on actual rock, Stems and Jammies, Black Cliffs Boise, December 18, 2014. Like my first "climbing" shoes? 

A first act of random kindness, from a fellow MPer, back when MP was very very brutal to noobs, especially an old lady who wouldn't just sit down and shut up, lol! The cam came with some other old gear. All they would say was, "give me your mailing address". 

I was expecting used cat litter.

But, I got dear, dear friends instead. Early members of my real family, which is entirely climbers now.

And, that carabiner is what went with the ATC. Now repurposed for house numbers for my new digs.

Helen